Introduction and ADHD Canvas PromotionIntroduction and ADHD Canvas Promotion

 [00:00:00] 

Laurence Pratt: Hey there. AADHDGoals isteners, before we get into today’s episode, have you ever tried productivity tools that claim to be ADHD friendly only to find. That they’re just like all the other neurotypical ones. Yep. Me too. That’s why I created something different. It’s called the ADHD Canvas. It’s a visual mapping tool that helps you make sense of how your unique ADHD brain works.

And in a 90 minute, one-on-one intensive session with me, we’ll use it to figure out what’s really going on behind your procrastination overwhelm or stop start patterns. You’ll finally have that. Aha. That’s why I do that [00:01:00] moment.

so when you can see it clearly, you can finally understand how your unique ADHD brain works, and you’ll have access to over 50 executive function coaching tools to help you build a rock solid action plan that will help you reach your goals. 

Sessions are limited, but as listeners of the ADHD goals podcast, you get to jump the queue. So just tap the link in the show notes to book your 90 minute ADHD Canvas intensive session, and let’s get you unstuck now on with the show. 

Welcome and Guest IntroductionWelcome and Guest Introduction

Laurence Pratt: Hello and welcome to another episode of the ADHD Goals podcast. I have a wonderful guest for you today. Her name is Dr. Tamara Hussein, and she’s a registered educational and child psychologist, and she’s a practicing partner of neuro kids.co.uk. And she supports and empowers [00:02:00] children and young adults with developmental and educational and mental health needs.and I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation ’cause I, I do like it when we have a conversation about how we can apply strategies and neuroscience to helping children with ADHD. So I’m really looking forward to, what we are gonna chat about today. So welcome to the show, doc. Tamara, how are

Tamara Hussain: Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, not bad. Thank you. Thank you so much for the invite and it’s great to be here. being able to speak about ADHD, discuss strategies. so thank you.

Laurence Pratt: Brilliant. Well, I’m really looking forward to it. so before we, we do get into all those wonderful neuroscience strategies. 

Dr. Tamara Hussein’s BackgroundDr. Tamara Hussein’s Background

Laurence Pratt: I wonder if you could tell, the listeners a little bit about yourself and your background, how you got into doing what you’re doing now.

Tamara Hussain: Okay, brilliant. So, I have, prior to becoming an educational psychologist, I was a practicing teacher both abroad and here in the uk. so, I’ve taught, in Australia, roughly [00:03:00] between the ages of five to kind of 18. and same here really through various opportunities, voluntary work and things like that.

So that’s kind of given me a broad understanding, of a range of learners, as well as those with diverse needs, of different ages. ’cause obviously, age as we find developmentally is quite important in terms of, you know, what their sort of interests and,kind of, presentations are at different ages and what that means for teaching strategies and learning.

So, that’s that. And obviously when I came here to the uk, I was at a bit of a crossroads, in deciding whether to carry on with teacher training here and then. Or, you know, indeed sort of follow the pathway towards educational psychology. psychology and education have always been my passion. sort of looking under the bonnet and really understanding how learners learn.

obviously the teaching, degree in qualifications gave me the opportunity to, you know, explore that a little bit, but actually studying in detail, how [00:04:00] minds work. For both neurotypical and Neurodiverse, children, was greatly inspiring. So I, you know, I’ve been really pleased to carry on with that journey.

Understanding ADHD and NeurodiversityUnderstanding ADHD and Neurodiversity

Tamara Hussain: so I, here in the UK I have worked for several local authorities, producing what we term as ed Educational Healthcare plans, for, you know, young people with a range of complex needs, although a kind of, very kind of structured piece of work. ultimately you do come across a range of, learners, whether they have, you know, A-S-D-A-D-H-D, even within those profiles, there’s so much diversity.

One A DH. Yeah, absolutely. So, Within ADHD, for example, you have, you know, so many variations and that inevitably has, implications for,interventions and strategies. So that’s, that was all eye opening and continues to be eye-opening as I, you know, develop in my career.

over time I’ve been really interested in kind of, brain-based work or, [00:05:00] neuroscience. So, 12 years ago, neuroscience was just, you know, becoming a little bit dominant in the discourse of ep. So I kind of explored views around it and, you know, started to see neurodiversity through the lens of the brain or the lens of neuroscience, which was quite, you know, you know, inspiring as well.

So, so at the moment we, carry out various training programs, with teachers, parents, practitioners, eps or educational psychologists, kind of trying to share that research and, talk about the implications for practice, you know, in the classroom at home, out there within professional communities.

and that has been, that is hugely empowering. I feel for practitioners and parents particularly, because of the fact that, you know, whether it’s ADHD or a. A SD parents and practitioners suddenly become aware of a physical physiological reality or a physiological basis of their child’s needs.

And that interestingly enough, you know, always [00:06:00] becomes very far easier, I feel, to visualize and, you know, understand. So, yeah. So at the moment, kind of, that, that area really interests me.

Laurence Pratt: I mean, you’ve already touched on a number of questions that I wanted to ask you. so I’m now trying to prioritize which one I ask you, I mean, you, lastly, you just mentioned like the parents and understanding how the brain works. I think, from a parent’s point of view, if they are neurotypical or they haven’t had any experience of understanding ADHD or any other, challenges, it can be really just a little bit, understanding and frameworks and around what is happening in the brain can be so to. Helping try and understand how they can support them. And, and I think, any parent that has, to realize that their child might have some, distinct needs before you get any of that information that you can feel very lost and not know how to deal with any of these things. So I think it’s wonderful that of being able [00:07:00] to provide, parents with some knowledge so that they feel, armed to tackle different situations.

Tamara Hussain: Absolutely.

I wonder, you also mentioned, earlier on, just about the differences between age ages, you know, age brackets and the, I wonder if you could explain a little bit more how that progression through the ages does affect how you, what strategies you might use. Yeah, absolutely. S

Neuroscience and Developmental Phases

Tamara Hussain: o

Neuroscience and Developmental Phases

Tamara Hussain: , the critical phases that we tend to focus on, you know, in terms of the neuroscience training at the early years, so roughly between the periods of zero to five, and then again, of course in adolescent period. it’s to, it’s not to say that the childhood period, post five and before 12 is necessarily unimportant.

but we see a general stagnant stagnancy, I guess, in, the neurological profile. Whereas in, between zero to five, for example, as you know, the. There’s a lot of kind of, [00:08:00] synaptogenesis happening, connections between neurons, followed by the pruning process where, their skills become far more ch fine tuned as time goes on.

So hopefully by the end of that five year period and indeed the adolescent period, you know, the brain, of those two brackets become far more efficient in processing information, understanding. So it becomes therefore so much more critical, about providing, you know, parents, practitioners with that knowledge, so that they could then really focus their time.

It could be anything. and, you know, I could be very broad in saying, you know, in terms of work related commitments, leisure commitments,the teaching, processes and, resources that are used, you know, how do you kind of, focus them or hone in on those, Key developmental periods.

So for example, in the early stages, we know that, you know, visual skills, neurologically, you know, developing at great speeds. So is gross motor skills. So not only in terms of ADHD, can [00:09:00] we, start to, you know, appreciate that yes. You know, they have that kind of profile of high levels of activity, high levels of impulsivity and energy, that will obviously become, evident as a child is growing in those periods.

But what can we do, to sort of compliment that, to, sort of provide stimulation, for example, you know, and raise those dopamine le levels and spikes, you know, is it about giving them,for example, one is a surprise element. children love that surprise, visually stimulating, you know, sparkly stuff, you know, cellophane,you know, sort of.

Different types of kind of sensory objects and things like that. things with light and sound. So not only are you kind of thinking about the visual development, but you’re also, you know, providing resources in line with that developmental period. Gross motor skills are in development. So what can we do for ADHD young people between zero to five?

We can, try and first of all establish, secure gross motor skills and coordination. [00:10:00] and then in line with their ADHD we might provide them with, you know, sort of, things like forest school activities, you know, climbing equipment, soft foam equipment. and really trying to get them in a kind of mode of being able to manage their ADHD impulsivity, hyperactivity off the cuff, you know, as early as, you know, their early years period.

So that’s kind of how to start off. I would imagine, and then obviously considering the adolescent pre period and the huge, second wave of synaptogenesis leading to more kind of development in the prefrontal cortex, which, also aligns with our understanding of ADHD, that tends to be the area that is affected.

Laurence Pratt: In terms of planning, organization, inhibition, controlling, behavior and emotions. you know, how can we sort of, balance that kind of need for risk taking and stimulation, but doing it in sort of safe [00:11:00] ways, that kind of fosters their need to be independent but during the adolescent period, but also starts to manage their ADHD.

Tamara Hussain: So, yeah, tending to sort of think about, I’m very much, in trading courses really keen about narrowing down on the key areas of development, first of all. and also, you know, describing the kind of key principles of neuroscience. So the brain changes as a result of de direct experience would be one very potent, sort of, principle that we’ll share.

and that’s sh. You know, indicates sort of experience, you know, moment by moment. So whenever the parents and practitioners are doing things, that’s having a direct effect on the choices and the behavior then the adolescent or the young person shows. so that’s reciprocity between the adult and the young person is absolutely paramount in managing those needs.

Strategies for Supporting ADHD in ChildrenStrategies for Supporting ADHD in Children

Laurence Pratt: Well, I was gonna ask what’s something that really interested me, about,supporting children with ADHD. [00:12:00] like for example, you might give me a really good,tip on how to manage a certain aspects of, executive function or something. And then I could go away after this and think, right, I’m gonna start implementing that in my daily routine or whatever. but I thi what I’m, the question is the challenge that comes with and their, I suppose, lack of autonomy or agency to be able to do some of those things. It means that they’re really reliant on the support from their parent, but then also when they’re at school, the support from teachers and also the challenge of how do you get a child to, we were talking about, giving parents the information of how the brain is working.

How do you approach sort of helping the child understand what’s going on inside their head? And then here’s the tools to use. seems so challenging to get them into a way of being able to practice those things. how do you manage that?

Tamara Hussain: Yeah, no, that’s a great question. And, you know, as psychologists we have a range of tools. I mean, first of [00:13:00] all. I think it’s really important to highlight the fact that,understanding neuroscience and, you know, even how our training courses work. You know, I start sort of, sharing things such as, introspection, metacognition, mindfulness practice.

These are all in the spirit of, you know, neuroscience if you like, and that we become more aware of our biological. Mechanisms, our internal mechanisms and, you know, a, as far as possible, you know, can we share these, wonderful insights with young people? Well, because, I find because of the highly visual and literal element, if you like, of how the brain works, you know, you can, you know, share these in very insightful ways, through artwork, through animation, through role play.

at the end of the day, one of the other key principles is the brain is actually behaving. How is it behaving? It is engaging in cause and effect. It is, engaging in action and reaction. if you do something to it, it reacts in certain ways, very much like young people behave in the,[00:14:00] playground.

So there’s a stimulus response. and the brain is very much,operating according to those patterns and where you see those patterns. It becomes far more easier to represent that in, in various ways. Again, visual means, you know, videos, animation, getting them to draw, doing artwork. in one of our training courses, we actually get, you know, adults actually to sort of draw the brain, you know, onto these sort of polystyrene heads, using a bit of a swimming cup.

So they take it away as a souvenir.and also the other, the day I was actually working with a young person who really was quite frustrated about their learning, a high functioning a SD type, child. And, they were quite keen about knowing why, they weren’t learning as efficiently as everyone else.

So I kind of just drew a very simple neural circuit, composing simply dots and lines, and, you know, a very simple representation, but at long, as long as it [00:15:00] kind of sheds light on the principles, you know, that’s what I’m keen about. So, you know, the child kind of understood, you know, as a line sort of connected between dots that, you know, learning was occurring and effectively in a very sort of simplified.

That is how the brain is, you know, operating. So, you know, role play animation, and drawing and art is a wonderful way. there are brilliant,interventions that are out there, healthy minds being one of them. I think that gained in HS approval recently. and you know, children, I feel it really resonates with them to kind of.

you know, help them understand their biological processes. Suddenly, like they see their bodies in very different ways. Like, oh, actually my body is exerting influence on the environment. I’m choosing how my body reacts and,takes action.

Laurence Pratt: the more you try to instill this understanding in young people, in the spirit as I was saying, mindfulness, introspection,the more that, from a young age, they’ll get used to the idea, you know, similar to interception, you know, [00:16:00] talking about their senses, in relation to the environment, talking about their physiology.

Tamara Hussain: I think more and more it’s lovely to see that schools and parents are instilling or, promoting this kind of understanding early on as these terms become far more circulated in, you know, the community out there. So, it’s great, you know, to be able to sort of share that, But first of all, obviously it’s important to educate and the, parents and practitioners and that’s why, and that’s very much, you know, our objective at the moment to kind of share that with staff out there.

Laurence Pratt: You, you mentioned, various sort of think different ways of learning and there was a lot of things, like drawing. and it very kinetic learning and active learning and things like this. 

Montessori Education and Child-Led LearningMontessori Education and Child-Led Learning

Laurence Pratt: and I wonder, I mean,I don’t know what the situation is when you were working in Australia, compared to here in the uk. but I know in the UK. There’s a real lack of sort of Montessori [00:17:00] educationI mean, my, my children were very fortunate enough to go to a Montessori school, for a

Tamara Hussain: Fantastic.

Laurence Pratt: for a lot longer than, ’cause it typically in the UK it just, it’s like, it’s Montessori, nurseries and because they know that they’re gonna start school the next year, they just sort of, it’s just a blend. so it’s not really Montessori. but, like I say, I was very fortunate children were able to access like, true Montessori and it fascinated me and I thought it was fabulous and I really wish that I’d had the opportunity.to go to that. and more broadly, specifically in the UK that it was more of an option.

I mean, there’s literally just a handful of schools that you can go, from, from nursery to, to, to school, leaving age. and I wonderwhat your thoughts are on that and whether you would, support like a movement to be able to bring in more options like this.

Tamara Hussain: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And a lot of thi what’s wonderful about Montessori and approaches like [00:18:00] that is generally, it can be cost free. It’s about experiential learning. It’s about, parents and adults providing, you know, limited resources, but kind of, Resources that are very functional to that period of development.

you know, you, you can, I think in some of our training programs where, we, we use things like, you know, curtain rings or we fill a bottle up with kind of beads or, rice or pasta, and that can be, you know, a Marra or something. you can, sort of stack things and, you know, basically learn some of those basic principles of play that, develops cognitive skills, in young people.

I really do believe in, you know, experiential kinesthetic learning. Again, any, most of these wonderful approaches, the wonderful thing about them, they’re kind of in line with neuroscience and the way our brains work. and we don’t need, you know, necessarily, a great amount of resources or overstimulation.

I think there was a criticism towards kind of hot [00:19:00] housing and, you know, really kind of overstimulating children. it’s about, you know, providing those natural, you know, resources to kind of stimulate them. and in different cultures like, you know, Sweden, Switzerland, and Nordic countries, they’re kind of curriculum or formal learning starts far later.

I’m sure you’re aware Lauren some a about some of those, ways there. And it’s very interesting. It’s very much play-based.

they tend not to start until about seven years

Yeah.

yeah. So.

Laurence Pratt: I mean, I sup there might be a lot of listeners, in the UK that perhaps aren’t really familiar with what Montessori is. and why we are sort of talking about it, quite passionately.

But what I found is, that child-led element of it, I mean obviously it has all those fa fascinating elements of it being, kinesthetic and, particularly like trying to learn maths when you can, when you physically see the quantities of things, it makes it a lot easier for, someone who’s very visual to understand, what they’re doing in maths rather than it being these abstract numbers [00:20:00] on

Tamara Hussain: Absolutely.

Laurence Pratt: But I, I think there’s a fear, with something like Montessori, which is quite child led, that, they just think, well, the child’s just gonna sit and play with something and not do, and resist learning about the things that they’re not interested in that. And I think that, that was until it was explained to me that, That what they’re interested in can then be the mechanism by which the teacher, I know they don’t call ’em teachers in Montessori, but they do say, well, once they’ve spot that their child is interested in something specific, they’ll then sit down with ’em and say, well, how can we incorporate, what your interests are with maybe that, that maths element that you are avoiding?

And say like, if they’re going outside to water, some plants, they’ll say, oh, do you know how we go to buy plants? We go to a shop and, you know, talk about how you might run that shop and things like that. And once they’ve got that engagement, more open to learning about all the things that come with it.

And I think it’s, I think it’s fascinating anyway.

Tamara Hussain: no, I do. you know, very ha hands-on, very [00:21:00] child-led. So it allows for that scaffolding, and that exploration. And children love autonomy, although we would think, oh, you know, they’re a bit. We need to sort of give them structure, but I feel that absolutely you’re right, that, you know, society in our time can be overly structured

Laurence Pratt: allowing the child to just explore.

Tamara Hussain: we’re obviously very bogged down a lot of the time with routines and schedules and things like that, more so than perhaps we were about 50 years ago. So, you know, it’s just the size of the times. but you know what I quite like is stripping all that back and being able to come back to the core of the child or the core of the person.

again, you know, working with biology to know, you know,what is right at this time, what is developmentally and neurologically appropriate. Absolutely.

Challenges and Strategies in Traditional EducationChallenges and Strategies in Traditional Education

Laurence Pratt: I mean, I think we, there’s a more and more conversation these days about PDA,and I think, thinking about a child that might have PDA and putting them into a classroom where they’ve got like, you’ve got like 60 [00:22:00] minutes to sit and sit still and learn this, and then it’s, boom, we’re gonna go to the next thing.

And it’s like, oh, wow. How much must be going on for them in terms of being told exactly what to do when really, they’ve probably got a physical need to do this, but, and it’s

Tamara Hussain: Yeah. That’s interesting. I’d had two recent cases of PDA and teachers obviously kind of. Calls an EP in, really, you know, we’ve tried various strategies going with their interests, going with their motivation, but the output would be extremely low and any sense of demand and whatever.

And I remember watching this kind of, you know, educational reel, of a person with PDA actually describing their experience. and it was very much, very visual, very symbolic, you know, they were sitting, standing at the sink with, you know, a, a pair of gloves about to do the washing, and then an adult walks in and it’s like, oh, just to remind you, can you just get the washing done?

Took off the gloves and just threw them. And, they described the experience very much like, oh, as soon as they [00:23:00] said that, my brain said no. so it’s not necessarily. Them. and that’s how,I kind of envisage this, kind of change in agency. and that talking about the brain to other people, it is quite empowering because it allows agency, it’s kind of saying that, look, I have, you know, an entity in here and, you know, I’m being told not to do this.

Not to kind of, respond to what you are saying. but I’m just this way. So, you know, with teachers and practitioners, you know, how do you bypass that and, maybe use language strategically in a way that kind of would invite that or give options, that, that does, you know, doesn’t place that demand on the young person.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah, I mean, certainly, I mean, the way I rationalize my understanding of PDA, and this might, might not be, a correct way of thinking about it, but I think it must be very related to that element of trust. And I think the person with PDA wants to feel trusted, and as soon as you place a [00:24:00] demand on them that they might think, well, I was going to do that anyway, but now that you don’t trust me, I’m not, I’m gonna, it switches to, the fast brain and it’s just once get out of there.

Tamara Hussain: but

Definitely.

Laurence Pratt: I think, you know, and this, I suppose this is the scary thing for teachers, parents, and, the whole education structure is. It takes time to build up for the child to build up that trust or you to build up the trust in the child that they will do it. And I think the, there’s far too much emphasis on, results and feedback to know that everybody’s working correctly, that you don’t really get as true sense of the importance of that qualitative nature of what the child feels about how engaged they are with the education.

If they feel trusted and engaged and have some agency and that they can, they’re gonna enjoy the experience of learning and more likely to invest in it on a longer period of timewhen it all sinks in. Rather than say, I [00:25:00] hate this experience, I don’t want to go there. and that’s it. and then you just feel ostracized from the whole system for the rest of your life.

Tamara Hussain: Absolutely. Absolutely. And a bulk of the work is so much, isn’t it, about kind of creating those learning environments that are stimulating, engaging. obviously the teacher’s work is always. challenging, bless them.

Laurence Pratt: it’s kind of, you know, within that structure, you know, it might come down to the bare bones as a teacher and instructor, am I enjoying the experience?

Tamara Hussain: What is it about me that, you know, could be a little bit more, stimulating itself? Is it my intonation, my tone of voice? The fact that, I quite like the idea of making this, experience fun for the young child, you know, whether we’re talking about the planets or un underwater, you know, it, can I make it, you know, something that I intrinsically am fascinated about?

And that kind of energy then translates into, into the classroom. And, children sort of feel feeling far more sort of tuned in and [00:26:00] engaged and kind of at one, I guess, with the teacher. so. obviously as I said previously, you know, there, there are sort of stimulating, you know, resources now available, you know, for a school.

We’ve got, you know, sense some,schools with brilliant sensory spaces. more and more teachers are allowing, you know, tactile objects into the classroom. But other teachers, interestingly enough, oh, you know, we. Still very reluctant to have any other resources, you know, you know, for young people with neurodiversity.

So it’s kind of communicating and you know, bringing, you know, staff to a common understanding of, you know, what is stimulating to the mind, developmentally. So if everybody had a uniform idea, there’d be less of that sort of conflictual, you know, thoughts about, oh, well, you know, that school might do it this way, I do it.

so if we had a kind of baseline understanding,and then from that point, we’re able as schools to be individually creative, you know, about the approaches that we [00:27:00] use, I think that’s a nice balance to have.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah, I mean, it certainly sounds, sounds exciting and, but I do also realize that, that being able to put that into place is also very resource heavy and it

Tamara Hussain: Absolutely.

Laurence Pratt: a lot of understanding on the teachers and support staff in terms of like what we sort of have been saying.understanding how the, how the brain works then influences how you sort of help teach and I suppose understanding the behavior of a, of an individual child, understanding what is happening in their brain so that you can react to that appropriately rather than just be like, oh, you’re being naughty, or what have you.

Tamara Hussain: Absolutely, and you can pick your battles. That’s the thing. we, we’ve had, just a recent, very quick example of a teacher, you know, instructing a year nine DT class, and it was a very small class of about four or five children. And, you know, the TT [00:28:00] teacher, you know, you know, took issue with a child having headphones.

and obviously doing, they were carrying on with their DT tasks, but obviously having the headphones listening to music. So I recall how, this kind of, exchange between the teacher and the student be quite, becoming quite heated and you know, and you just think, well generally, you know, if he’s.

Listening to sort of music, we know, for example, that may increase his sense of, you know, feel good. His sense of, his, his dopamine levels and, you know, that could actually,influence his engagement with the task at hand, you know, rather than sort of, be like an adverse effect.

So it’s you know, that exchange went on for a while, but, you know, if the teacher were educated that, you know, music itself kind of having those headphones on it, it’s not really interfering with that modality of learning necessarily. it’s actually probably benefiting the young person and helping them stay engaged with that task.

again, a lot of these, issues I feel can get back a little bit [00:29:00] wi with that knowledge and understanding. So we are very keen, I think one of our packages is, secondary school teachers. we have a package where we, Sort of share, an understanding about the adolescent brain. so we talk about that whole period.

And,highlighting, things to do with risk-taking behavior. There’s,sort of striving for independence. 

Understanding Adolescent BehaviorUnderstanding Adolescent Behavior

Tamara Hussain: also, looking at sleep regulation difficulties, changing in, prefrontal cortex, rejecting, you know, authority requests and demands. So it’s kind of like all these behaviors and choices are having a directly, have, a neurological basis.

So shedding light on that, suddenly kind of, disarms in a way. Teachers because it’s like, oh, it’s not about me anymore. It’s not about the, you know, that young person doesn’t necessarily like me or my method of teaching, they’re just going through this phase. And that kind of outlook in itself is transformative in the classroom.

’cause then the teacher can go in and say, oh [00:30:00] look, you know, I’m about to enter a classroom with these, young people who o obviously, you know, are going through this. You know, huge period of change in flux, biologically. And, you know, it’s not necessarily about me. it, let’s just give an.

The best experience, build that trust as you were saying. ’cause trust is so important

Laurence Pratt: in, look, you know, I’m going to allow you to be who you are at the stage that you’re in. and, you know, you know, I have your best interests at heart and, you know, I’m going to teach this lesson as stimulating as I can.

Tamara Hussain: and, you know, I won’t respond to necessarily, I will sort of pick and choose, with regard to, you know, the behaviors that, may be kind of low level, as opposed to those that are really testing boundaries. So it’s kind of allows teachers to make those critical decision making, choices.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah, absolutely.

Tamara Hussain: Yeah.

Practical Neuroscience ApplicationsPractical Neuroscience Applications

Tamara Hussain: I wonder if,I’m thinking about, the listeners and them having some sort of really.practical takeaways to, to have from this [00:31:00] conversation. and I wonder if you have any, specific favorite, practical applications of any neuroscience nuggets that you like to share with relation to Yeah. 

The Role of the Prefrontal CortexThe Role of the Prefrontal Cortex

Tamara Hussain: so, we know for example that, you know, the sort of critical area that is affected urological is the frontal lobe. we know that, you know, this, area of the brain was final to develop in the ever evolutionary phase, in people. So, you know, this, area is typically under complete change in flux between the ages of roughly,13 to 25.

and doesn’t really, take its true form until, 25 years. So what we mean by that is. we know the brain has cells, it has neurons, and, you know, those kind of,associated with, different areas, learning memory, attention. and you know, what critically happens during these sensitive periods, earlier I was talking about zero to five.

And indeed the adolescent phase is that, [00:32:00] growth, of, connections between, brain cells, formed by or following. Following that, a period of pruning or fine tuning, the skills in adolescence. so we find that the prefrontal cortex is kind of, a central figure. You know, it’s kind of like the executive area of the brain, the kind of conductor if you like, which kind of, you know, regulates things like attention, impulsivity, inhibition, you know, memory focus.

and so this area is kind of developing at that period, which means that, you know, while huge, growth in connections are taking place, you know, adolescents are kind of exhibiting certain behaviors that would help to fine tune it, and actually lead to, effective functioning as an adult.

Risk-Taking and Brain DevelopmentRisk-Taking and Brain Development

Tamara Hussain: So risk taking, we find, a lot of parents out there and practitioners will agree risk taking is high on the agenda. So prior to that, if you think about the childhood period, you know, children are generally, formally [00:33:00] kind of, Sort of, you know, complying with adult, instructions, very compliant.

You know, primary school is a phase where they don’t question authority, and suddenly in the adolescent period they’re questioning authority and, you know, sort of challenging, coming to their own conclusions about things. So that kind of, if you like, symbolizes those, you know, huge connections being made.

So in that time, there will be a lot of mistakes and things, and it’s how we respond to those, you know, mis mistake mistakes and choices rather necessarily to punitive outcomes. We vouch for kind of positive outcomes or, you know, reinforcing outcomes. So we might, use our language and communication in certain ways to kind of foster number one, that independence, but number,To that kind of advice of, you know, that cautionary advice, oh, you know, I like your choice, but you know, I wouldn’t, what about doing it this way? 

Effective Communication StrategiesEffective Communication Strategies

Tamara Hussain: it’s kind of giving them a choice and starting to assume a kind of adult-like form of communication with [00:34:00] them. and we find that adolescents generally like that kind of approach,they’re kind of very receptive to that rather than giving them directives and commands, which is no longer desirable.

So on the one hand, those types of things.so risk taking behavior, again, taking safe risks. they will as an outcome of their, brain development, seek out, you know, depending on their sort of upbringing, they might want to challenge boundaries a little bit more. So I find children who have lived in kind of adverse.

You know, had adverse life experiences or very unsettled home environment, they will tend to, relatively challenge the boundaries a little bit more than say, someone who’s had a very settled environment. 

Creating Safe and Supportive EnvironmentsCreating Safe and Supportive Environments

Tamara Hussain: So, again, it’s about sort of, you know, having more family time, having more connections.

parents tend to get busy during that period, so, it’s about, you know, setting a set. aside time, I guess, among parents of giving them, [00:35:00] you know, quality, family time, even going on holidays and things like that can be sort of seen as,highly stimulating. You need to plan, you need to organize, you need to, get to the ticket desk, make sure you’re there on time.

so things that kind of insight that adrenaline. sports is another one. Sports and recreation, allowing them, you know, lots of opportunities to release that,kind of, levels of energy. And we know that dopamine, is quite, you know, sporadic in that time, particularly with young people with ADHD.

So, for example, you know, we’d, I’d be happy, like my dopamine. Levels are heightened by a cup of coffee or, finding the right pen, for example. Whereas, you know, with, adolescents, particularly with ADHD,they will need, greater, you know, different types of simulation to increase those spikes, you know, on a daily basis.

So, you know, thinking about the structures and routines in the day and ensuring that there are, good periods of time where they [00:36:00] get to release their energy either through outdoor activities, sports trampolining, you know, swimming, you know, just going out with friends. so a range of, these types of things.

so those would be the kind of main ones specifically about ADHD. again, it, it is about sort of, you know, instilling those, you know, safe boundaries at home and, you know. Creating that independence. so let me know if some of these are kind of in tune with some of your audience and what you have covered previously.

Laurence Pratt: Well, what I’ve taken away from that was first of all, the way that we as parents choose to respond to actions or behaviors or whatever, I think is very important. you were saying, I like your choice, but maybe I would’ve done this, that the other,it’s sort of, again, it goes back to that trust element of saying, well, I, I see what you’ve done and I probably understand why you’ve done that.

However, and I wonder if you’ve got, but [00:37:00] saying that whilst we are having a chat about it here, it’s really easy to say that. but in the moment where you personally as the adult might be slightly triggered by what has happened or,

Tamara Hussain: Yeah.

Laurence Pratt: it can be very then difficult to, Be the adult in this, in the room when so I wonder if you have any recommended stock phrases that, that just use a gentler language to acknowledge that they’ve, made an independent decision.without saying No, don’t do it like that.

Tamara Hussain: yeah, absolutely. No, I mean, I can’t stress the importance of, these devices being established in the childhood period.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah.

Tamara Hussain: that communication style. it’s not necessarily, it’s not like, you know, you’d kind of start to suddenly introduce your communication style in adolescence necessarily, but towards, you know, mid childhood to later childhood, you’d start to kind of bring these, you know, negotiation type language and tools, at that point as [00:38:00] well.

So first of all, sort of, having that trust between parent and, young person at home, building that sort of, knowing that they’re going to go through this, transition stage, being mentally prepared as a parent ’cause that’s so important to be mentally prepared for that complete change in transition into adolescence.

and then obviously, you know, when they do test the boundaries, you know. Think about things like humor, and I know that’s, it’s really hard to have humor, but if you’ve got a stock pot of, phrases that a little bit on the sarcastic side, I think it works well with, adolescent, oh, it didn’t work well this time, did it?

you know, you’ve come home a little bit more muddy than, you know, I would’ve liked, or, these kinds of, rhetorical questions, for example. you know, sort of highlighting, the fact that they’ve made a choice. It wasn’t greatly desirable the outcome. but ultimately it was their choice.

Well, you know, it, it’s kind of, you know, even asking them, what would you do differently next time? [00:39:00] but I feel that number one, the trust needs to be established a lot more

Laurence Pratt: during the late phases of childhood.

Tamara Hussain: Well that, I mean, you know, there might be some parents listening and go, well, I haven’t done that. And they’re now reaching, you know, 13 Yeah,

Laurence Pratt: and Wow. But that’s it. I can’t, failed. But I suppose the important thing to consider might be that, that it’s never too late to engage in

Tamara Hussain: absolutely.

Laurence Pratt: but maybe trying to. Introduce those in a moment where it’s all kicking off, perhaps isn’t the best time. would you recommend sort of talking about this when you are, I mean, I want to use the terms that I’ve borrowed the terms from, the chimp paradox in terms of the human brain, which is the executive functions and the chimp being,the fight, flight and freeze. and so what I tend to do is got to establish these, this understanding when you’re talking to the human brain, when the child is relaxed and feeling logical, when the chimp is active and you start saying, right, we’re going to, implement [00:40:00] this. They’re not gonna listen or understand or,

Tamara Hussain: yes.

Laurence Pratt: but talk I, what I found useful, particularly with, young people is talking, like being them, being able to visualize like that metaphor of the human brain.

The chi makes it easier to understand what the. The associated behaviors are with that, and then they can analyze their behavior or their actions based on who was in charge at the time. Was it the human brain or the chimp brain. And they go,

Tamara Hussain: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So, you’re absolutely right. So I think,being able to sort of explain these processes if possible, when they’re in a state of calm. So, if they have a space, you know, and as some of your podcasts, I think, Lauren, you’re talking about quiet spaces and, you know, A place where they can deescalate from those heightened emotions. So having those spaces, to retreat to, when they’ve engaged in something, you know, overstimulating or overpowering or, some kind of aggressive response, they can retreat to these spaces. And then obviously whe when their brain [00:41:00] is in a state of calm, and, you know, the sort of, processes are working, calmly.

You can have those conversations, with the young person. I noticed today, you know, you,have found something challenging and you responded in this way. and we can go into sort of details about, the chimp brain or kind of the amygdala or emotional responses.

being quite sort of, heightened. And we talk about sort of, you know, I personally talk about, when I talk about emotions, I kind of, Show participants, you know, pictures of clouds. I don’t know, there’s lovely sort of three dx images of sort of clouds, you know, and, that they kind of start sort of precipitating and there’s various colors and, you know, that could sort of symbolize, the overpowering or overpowered brain that kind of starts to kind of smother the rest of, you know, the executive functioning skills.

So that choices can’t be made decisions, effective decisions can’t be made during that period. So, again, those might, really work. but again, [00:42:00] your sort of examples of, you know, the chimp brain, I don’t know how, if you’ve tried that with, young people to kind of, explain the challenge between obviously the kind of emotional brain and the executive functioning brain.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah, I mean, I tried to make a, I’ve made a video with my kids about it so that I had one of

Tamara Hussain: Oh, wow.

Laurence Pratt: I had one of them, with a chimp mask on and the other one with, like a. A lab coat on and,

Tamara Hussain: Oh, love it.

Laurence Pratt: but I mean, I try to use another analogy, but unfortunately kids don’t get the reference.

I sometimes think, you know, you’ve got two copilots in your brain. One is Sherlock Holmes and the other is Inspector Clouseau. But they

Tamara Hussain: Okay.

Laurence Pratt: know what the Inspector Clouseau is from the Pink Panthers anymore.

Tamara Hussain: Yeah. Yeah.

Laurence Pratt: so

Tamara Hussain: That’s it. A bit outdated. Yeah, absolutely. so anything that could, sort of indicate that overpowering nature, like I say, you know, I create those clouds and this smog that kind of over overpowers, and you can easily draw [00:43:00] an image of a head where, you’ve got sort of very distinct areas and processes, much like a roadmap.

And then the road gets clouded by this smog that then sort of starts to look like it’s overpowering that environment. And that’s literally, you know, how, you know, we can sort of start to envisage the, you know, our submissiveness, you know, to, you know, heightened emotions when we are in a state of dysregulation.

so anything that illustrates that, sense of overpowering, you know, might,illustrate that.

Laurence Pratt: And you also mentioned, you know, that family time and connectedness,I suppose what that left me think it is again, we were sort, sort of talking about like safety. When I always think about that the chimp maybe sort of, it doesn’t feel safe, then it’s gonna react with, fight, flight or freeze and it’s gonna be blocking out, all the logical executive functions.

So I suppose fostering that safe. Environment and also a safe [00:44:00] environment to make mistakes in without judgment

Tamara Hussain: Perfect.

Laurence Pratt: is really important. So that, that chimp doesn’t feel, at risk and then override all the time.

Tamara Hussain: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s a really good point because, I think as parents it’s. Always good to model or be in a state of cool, calm as much as you can. ’cause that modeling is what, they then internalize. so despite them, you know, adolescents kind of being in this kind of state where they’re risk taking, you know, going out there, challenging boundaries and things like that.

What we tend to forget as parents or underrate is the fact that they’re still seeking boundaries. Adolescents are not fully developed. They have a child within them that still seeks those boundaries. And they do expect parents to, you know, offer those boundaries because they almost know that, oh, look, I’m about to do this.

Mom’s not gonna be very happy. You know, they’re very clued on about that. They’re very clear about that. I feel it’s just that they [00:45:00] are kind of being instructed by the biological system. No, just challenge that today. You know? and that’s as, as a kind of very evolutionary way of thinking. Most species kind of do that in order to develop.

I mean, you wouldn’t develop half the skills you have without risk taking and mistakes. So it’s very much like, once you make that mistake, you’re not likely to make it again.

Laurence Pratt: you’re, you are, you’re kind of stung by it. So if you hadn’t have made it, then it’s likely that in a future time you might make it again.

Tamara Hussain: So it’s very much part of the developmental process, both for young people and for adults. But very crucially in young people. so you almost have to allow them sometimes, you know, room for those safe mistakes. What I also find empowering is parents being able to share their mistakes when they were younger, but doing so in a very kind of narrative storytelling kind of way.

I remember when I, you know, and I went to that disco and I dropped all this coffee all [00:46:00] over my, and I got laughter and I just felt so humiliated and I went home and I had to change, you know, these kinds of wonderful stories. They might kind of smirk or all their eyes, but actually they’re listening and processing.

and they’re very much looking for guidance. So sometimes when my young person, they, at the age of 16 when they share things with me,it’s almost like they need that outlet to speak. And at that point, it’s a critical point where you either respond in a kind of.

Belittling away, or you kind of listen, you might even choose to be quiet. so I, you know, sometimes, you know, young people, they retort back and like, is it worth replying to that retort or should you just, you know, quieten down and let them hear their own thoughts? That’s often something we tend to underestimate.

They are in the process of kind of listening to their own thought processes and being very aware that led to a mistake, you know, very likely to do [00:47:00] with, one of three reasons. so it’s the adult having trust that, the young person is very aware of, you know, some of the mistakes and, drawbacks that, you know, they go through in day-to-day life and allowing them as much time to kind of recalibrate and, you know, kind of listening to their thoughts and.

Problem solve and overcome. and then, you know, offering, you know, those kind of caring tips as long as it’s coming from a place of, you know, authenticity if you like. 

The Importance of AuthenticityThe Importance of Authenticity

Tamara Hussain: And that’s something I also talk about in a lot of the training, about that sort of, frequency of authenticity. You know, adolescents more than anyone else pick it up.

That kind of frequency of, okay, is this person being genuine? is this adult being genuine with their mistake, shortcoming in what they’re telling me? So, you know, if, you know, parents and practitioners, if they continuously reflect on authenticity, of what they’re saying and aligning with what they’re doing, that goes a long way.

and that we do that [00:48:00] ourselves as practitioners. We’re always constantly reflecting on, you know, are these approaches, interventions effective for the young person? Should I have done it a little bit differently? so you can, go into sort of that self narrative, even with the adult being present, like, oh, I don’t know if I did that correctly.

I mean, I, you know, I should have done it this way anyway, you know, I think, I’ve learned from that and I’ll do it well next time. So that kind of narrative can be hugely, beneficial for both sort of, Mainstream adolescents as well as those with ADHD?

Laurence Pratt: Yeah. ’cause I think, I mean my eldest is just about to, reach this stage. So I’m sort of very acutely aware of all this now. But I think, you know, a as you were sort of, sort of saying, you know, when, you know, a younger child sort of puts a, maybe, puts a parent on a pedestal of like, they’re always, you know, look up to them and think

Tamara Hussain: Yes.

Laurence Pratt: right, but then they reach that independence and then they think, well, they can’t possibly understand.

’cause everything I’ve learned, I’ve arrived at my own thoughts

Tamara Hussain: Yes.

Laurence Pratt: and it’s [00:49:00] impossible for a child to consider that you may have been young once and lived through all those experiences. and so I think what you were saying about mistakes that you’ve made, they start to see, oh, okay.are fallible, but they’re learning. And I think, I mean, my, my eldest. Is very resistant to, making mistakes. And I think this is quite strange, it

Tamara Hussain: Yeah.

Laurence Pratt: a great strain on her.it’s very difficult for her to overlook to any mistakes or, you know, a admit that she might have not done something well. and I think that’s, that could be a big barrier. and I want to try and help foster in a, the ability to understand that making mistakes is a faster way of learning.

Tamara Hussain: Yes.

Laurence Pratt: doesn’t, and it doesn’t change my opinion of her and her, friend’s opinion of her and this, that, and it. I, because I think, resistant to that, I mean, I’m very similar and, I think you hold too much value on whether you’ve done something perfect, Lee or [00:50:00] not.

And that can be really stunting later on in life. so yeah, I think it’s really important to sort of just. Again, going back to the safety of it’s safe to make mistakes,and learn and be continually learning, like you were saying, the practitioners sort of always assessing, did I do that?

Could I do that better? ’cause it’s a lot more freeing, I think.

Tamara Hussain: It is very much it is very freeing and like you say, it, creates a quicker pathway to learning, imagine smaller mistakes in a, on a daily basis rather than kind of that all mighty mistake at the end of, four or five years of trying the same thing. So, but yeah, so I, we are, we’re totally in, in reflection while we are parents and practitioners.

So that’s what’s important.

Laurence Pratt: Well, thank you so much for your time today. 

Resources and Services for Parents and PractitionersResources and Services for Parents and Practitioners

Laurence Pratt: I know we are, we’re coming up to the end of our conversation now and I just wanted to, Say if any listeners, wanted to learn a bit more about you or maybe, check out what services you provide, would you quickly just tell the listeners where [00:51:00] they can, reach you? we, I know you mentioned, before, neuro kids.co.uk, but there was also, they can reach you directly as well.

Tamara Hussain: Okay, so, we, I have a private practice called EP Practice, so that’s, E for Edward, P for Penelope practice,

Laurence Pratt: and, Milton Keynes. we are also going to, open offices in Melbourne in August, fifth. So, you know, we’ll be based in, Melbourne as well. So if you would like to, you know, look at the website, there’s opportunities to kind of, come, you know, with queries and questions.

Tamara Hussain: We, welcome that daily so we kind of know, you know, what parents’ needs are out there and how we could tailor services and training to towards that. We offer online training courses as well as kind of face-to-face for teachers, practitioners, professionals working with, young people of all ages. So do look out for that EP [00:52:00] practice.

Milton Keynes, soon to be at Melbourne, on a Google search.

And just, so that I understand, is it limited to, the local area in terms of if you’re inbuilt of keyeds or can you access it online and,Absolutely.

Laurence Pratt: to Yeah.

Tamara Hussain: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, international kind of, a website is ac accessible to all, no matter where you are on the globe. So, you know, feel free to sort of reach out. we’d like to be there, for as many parents, practitioners, professionals as possible. this area is becoming far more prominent as we speak, but what is lacking, I think as you say, Laurence is the narrative, really making science,relevant to p practical applications.

So that’s what we are keen on, to kind of disseminate the science, share it in a very usable, kind of read a friendly format through all those approaches, you know, videos, animations, and things like that, that’s what our training focuses on, but directly linking to then what does that mean for the strategies I apply as a [00:53:00] practitioner and I can share with young people.

Laurence Pratt: Fabulous. Well, thank you so much, Tamara for a wonderful conversation and, yeah,I look forward to

Tamara Hussain: It’s been a pleasure.

Laurence Pratt: from you next and

Tamara Hussain: Okay,

Laurence Pratt: Alright. Thank

Tamara Hussain: Lovely to be here, Laurence. Thank you so much.

Conclusion and Final ThoughtsConclusion and Final Thoughts

Laurence: Well there, we have it. Thank you so much for listening this far. If you want to hear more episodes, then please subscribe on YouTube or whatever podcast platform you use. It really helps us spread the word. So if you know anyone, this episode could help, then please share it with your friends. If you want to follow me on social media, I am on Instagram at ADHD underscore goals. And you can find me on Facebook too. If you want to get into touch with the show, then you can email me at hello@adhdgoals.co And finally, if you’re struggling to manage your ADHD and you would like me to be your coach, then please head over to my website and get in touch. Until next time. [00:54:00] Bye for now.