116: Why So Many Mothers Get Diagnosed With ADHD After Their Child Does, with Kat Frize

Laurence Pratt: [00:00:00] Welcome to the ADAD Goals podcast. My guest today is Kat Frize. She is the COO of care, ADHD, which is one of the UK’s fastest growing ADHD assessment and treatment providers. Kat herself has ADHD, and she’s a mother of two. One of those is neurodivergent, and she has spent nearly two decades leading large teams in the digital world before making the move into ADHD care.

And today we’re talking about her story, what care ADHD is doing to change the landscape. And, a topic that I think a lot of the listeners will resonate with, the experience of mothers receiving their own ADHD diagnosis after their child has been diagnosed first. So, Kat, welcome to the show. How are you doing?

Kat Frize: Yeah, I’m good. Thank you. Thanks for having me, Laurence. It’s really nice to, chat with you today.

Laurence Pratt: Oh, yeah, it is a pleasure. I’ve been looking forward to chatting with you, because, I’ve [00:01:00] been noticing that, care, ADHD has been doing a, a really big push at the moment to grow that team there. So it’d be exciting to talk about what’s going on, over there. you, are you in, Canary Wharf today?

In, in,

Kat Frize: yes. I’ve, had a bit of annual leave recently, so I am in the office, pretty much every day this week, catching up with people and moving projects along. I do like coming down here, but I’m hybrid, so sometimes I’m at home.

Laurence Pratt: ah, okay, well, hybrid. We might get onto that later, the hybrid working and how that

Kat Frize: Yeah,

Laurence Pratt: ADHD.but that, I mean, I could go into so many different subtopics, but’s all

Kat Frize: Laurence. We’re gonna have a lot of fun. can feel the rabbit holes coming.

Laurence Pratt: exactly. Watch out. so, I tend to like to, start the show with, finding out a little bit about the guest. And so I want to find out a little bit about your own backs story and your own experience with ADHD.

Kat Frize: yeah, absolutely. So, it’s a bit of a [00:02:00] funny one for me ’cause I think like a lot of women, my age who have been diagnosed later in life, it really became apparent for me that there might be something more to my traits when I became a mum.

Laurence Pratt: Mm-hmm.

Kat Frize: it was only when I started to. I don’t know, understand, I guess, a little bit more about some of the communication challenges that I was having with my own daughter.

I’m wondering why can my husband seemingly have these, amazing exchanges with her that are nice and calm and, they just communicated really well and I was really struggling. And I started to really reflect on it and think about, things a little bit more deeply. and that kind of took me into a lot of different rabbit holes.

And it was only then that I started to recognise some of the, don’t know, the challenges I guess, that I was seeing in her were actually coming from me. And she hadn’t got them from dad at all. They were very much from me. and [00:03:00] that was when I had this kind of almost like an epiphany moment where I thought, actually, you know what? I don’t think that a lot of or neurotypical people do think the way that I think and have the, don’t know, challenges that I’m experiencing. And maybe that’s something that I should start to explore. And, yeah, and it was a bit of a kind of rabbit hole that I went down, which eventually I ended up in, in me receiving a diagnosis in my late thirties. And, it was, it was almost like when I found out that, I had ADHD I understood more about what it was almost a kind of, there was that moment of like, how could I not have known before this? ’cause it’s so obvious when you actually write it all down and you actually look at all the signs.

But of course, we didn’t know back then what we know now, so.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah, I was gonna ask becauseit’s all well and good, it becoming clear now, I don’t think we had the same lens, 20 years ago to understand,the frame of reference of what [00:04:00] ADHD was. I mean, in my mind, ADHD as I heard it when I was a child, it was only ever really referenced on, like American boys, naughty boys in films or whatever.

And so to think that ADHD could be something else that didn’t show outwardly, and it wasn’t just fidgeting or being naughty, was somewhat of a revelation for me as well. ’cause I didn’t tend to be, that kind of a child. It was just all that internal,fidgeting.

Kat Frize: Yeah. and it’s funny because, I was a really high achiever at school. 

Laurence Pratt: Mm-hmm. 

Kat Frize: was put over there in the, I think they called it at the time, they probably don’t call it this anymore, the gifted enabled students, I don’t know, club or whatever. And you were basically left over there because you functioned and you got on with the work and you weren’t being super disruptive or needing a lot of extra help.

And as I got older, I did become more disruptive. but [00:05:00] it, I think because I was doing well academically, it wasn’t a cause for concern. It was a, Kat needs to stop talking so much. If only Kat stopped talking, then she would be able to achieve so much more. And she’s distracting her friends. It wasn’t a, she’s not hitting the markers and she’s gonna fail her exams kind of disruption.

And so it was just deprioritized. ’cause were bigger challenges in the classroom than me at that time, But that in itself caused me issues because then I felt like I got to my late teens and then when I went into university and I had to be really self-sufficient, I lost a lot of those structures that were in place for me in that very led taught environment at school. And suddenly it was like, oh, wow, this is not good. and yeah, I struggled. I really struggled. And the fear of failure for me was acute. And, it, it really, it prevented me actually from doing an awful lot of things back then that I really wanted to do and I could have done,

Laurence Pratt: Mm-hmm.

Kat Frize: [00:06:00] I had never been put in a position before where I wasn’t gonna succeed.

And so, being at university, losing that structure that had kept me functional as a young person going through school, albeit with the other challenges, it was a real shock to the system.

Laurence Pratt: No, I resonate with that totally. that whole, once you strip away the structure and you’ve got to start looking after yourself, you real, you realise that, oh wow, I’ve got no discipline whatsoever, or,

Kat Frize: Oh. And then Laurence, when you throw a couple of kids into that, wow, that was really when it hit me actually. Really? and that’s, I think why it I don’t wanna describe it as going downhill, but it was a struggle. It was a real struggle,

Laurence Pratt: Mm-hmm.

Kat Frize: looking after the other people that I was now responsible for at that time.

Laurence Pratt: And you mentioned, earlier that, that, is communication issues. And I wonder if you could describe those in a bit more detail.

Kat Frize: Oh, absolutely. I find this subject really fascinating actually. So, my daughter [00:07:00] has, been diagnosed with ADHD and autism and,she has, she has Tourette’s as well. so lots of comorbidities that we see quite commonly in people who are neurodivergent. And the thing with ADHD and autism is they, as I’m sure they really are headbutting each other in, in many of those traits that you find with those conditions.

And is, for example, someone who is a very literal thinker. So she needs very precise language. She needs it to be factual. If we are in the car and she says to me, where are we going? And I say, it’s just around the corner, and we literally do not turn the next corner. That’s a problem.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah.

Kat Frize: up getting into a tussle in the car.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah.

Kat Frize: she would be saying, but mommy, you lied to me. And I would be, no, just calm down, it’s fine. and it was those kind of conversations that were, I actually found really difficult because my brain is [00:08:00] working at 500 miles an hour. I just wanna get to the point of the conversation or to the place that we’re going and,achieve this objective that I am so, focused on getting to. And her way of communicating was,she needs me to be really precise in the way that I communicate with her. And if I am going too quickly for her, that overwhelms her. And then you’ve got this snowballing effect where her overwhelm is preventing me from moving as quickly as I need to move because I have to stop, pause, be a mom, manage this situation, this conversation. And before I knew that was and why it was happening, it was really stressful because I thought that she was being difficult and I thought that I was being a bad mom, and why can’t my husband have these interactions with her? And this not happen, it doesn’t escalate this way. And actually, it’d been this way since she was a toddler, 

Laurence Pratt: And it had always [00:09:00] been that way with me and her. And I didn’t necessarily have that challenge with my son.

Mm-hmm.

Kat Frize: And interestingly, my son’s traits, though, he’s not diagnosed, he has very similar traits to me. And my daughter has very similar traits to my husband. And so they communicate in a way that is different to the way that I communicate.

And that’s actually why I did go down the path of seeking a, an assessment for her, because I needed to understand we were struggling. Why I was struggling to communicate with her in the way that she needed me to. And whether the, this was just her being difficult with me because of maybe my downfall as a parent and my in, inabilities to, to communicate effectively with her. Or if there was just something in the way that she needed to communicate that I wasn’t aware of and wasn’t accommodating. And actually that’s what it was.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah,

to understand what she needed, I think that’s quite an interesting, [00:10:00] I.play of, I, I would probably say, well, I mean, I’m jumping to conclusions, but the precision of needing to know everything, I would probably put that in the autistic camp as opposed to the ADHD camp.

Kat Frize: and personally when I think about my parenting, me, and my children,I’ve got,one of my daughters is I would say very ADHD.

Laurence Pratt: And so when, whenever we’ve got to get anywhere on time, whether it’s getting to school or whatever, I’m so focused on trying to get myself ready and on time that I’m not able to then do all the sort of, really organised stuff to help her get ready on time. So there, there’s always a clash when it comes to that.

Kat Frize: But to imagine the situation where if I was needing to think ahead and have all the details ready to, reassure a child, I’d be like, I’m just winging it. So I don’t have those details, soyeah.

Laurence Pratt: you [00:11:00] precise.

Kat Frize: And, that’s exactly what I’ve had to do. I’ve had to be really open with the kids, and we do have a very open relationship and we talk really frankly, about the way that our brains work. And it was something that I’ve been quite proactive in to educate them on so that we can understand each other better.

And even if I don’t have all the answers, to be able to say to them, I don’t have the answers right now, but let’s go and find out, let’s understand how we can navigate this situation better together. it’s really, it is very important because she does need things from me that I can’t always give to her, precise timings. I’m, I’ve maybe not taken my meds and I am at the weekend. I’m not in functional work mode. I’m in, okay, I’m gonna relax, I’m gonna have some downtime mode, and she needs to know what time are we gonna arrive at the birthday party and who is going to be there?

Laurence Pratt: Mm-hmm.

Kat Frize: Cognitively switched on that part of my, head yet, that can be a real [00:12:00] challenge.

Laurence Pratt: And then I’m struggling with my own time blindness and I’m getting caught held to account because I said that we’d be leaving at 1207 and it’s now 1209 and mommy, we haven’t left yet. And I’m, is stressful, Yeah.

Kat Frize: actually being armed with the knowledge to navigate those situations and knowing that’s what she needs, and if I don’t have it right, then I can call it out and say, Hey, my daughter, I’m not gonna say her name.

Laurence Pratt: Mm-hmm.

Kat Frize: daughter, we, you need this right now. And mommy can only give you that. that’s why we’re having a difficult moment. Let’s just take a second. I’ll do my best to get you what I need. You need, but I might not be able to do that right now.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah.

Kat Frize: Having those conversations have really helped us.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah. So, so take me back to that time where you were getting your daughter a diagnosis and then it turned out that you thought, oh,I think maybe I need to get a diagnosis as well. I mean, those two things happening at the same time. and also I suppose gi [00:13:00] given that, back when you were a child, it didn’t, perhaps weren’t aware of ADHD as much.

what was it like, first of all,getting your child’s diagnosis and then realising you, were a d, HD. How did it all unfold and how did you take those first steps into

Kat Frize: Yeah, it’s a good question. I actually, it was very much in parallel. it started with this sort of realisation at one point that her traits that I was struggling with, this is on the sort of more of the ADHD side as well, because she’s hyper ADHD I’m combined,they were probably coming from me, some of her kind of emotional dysregulation and that kind of, side of her, sorry, I’ve just realised my notifications are gonna start popping off.

I’m just gonna put that on, focus mode so that they don’t keep pinging me. Um,I had this moment where it occurred to me [00:14:00] that I shared those traits and I actually went to get my diagnosis first. So I hadn’t really decided at that point whether I was definitely going to take her through that pathway. She expressed a desire to have an assessment because she was struggling with her ticks, which at the time we did not know was Tourette’s. And, so when I was looking into it, I decided that we needed to go down a kind of holistic route and really have a full assessment in one go at, to look at all of the challenges that we were having really, ’cause I’d, it occurred to me that. I properly, that was the cause of some of these. in parallel of kind of realising that we needed to go down this pathway with her, I am in a fortunate position where I was able to go and get a private assessment

Laurence Pratt: Mm-hmm.

Kat Frize: and I’d gone to the doctor to talk about her and her needs. And they had actually, referred us to the neurological [00:15:00] centre, for her TX and for further assessment, via the NHS.

Laurence Pratt: Mm-hmm.

Kat Frize: In the meantime, I went privately, got my assessment realised. Yeah, I do think actually she definitely needs this holistic kind of review. then the NHS after a little while, came back to us and said, no, she’s eating, drinking. We’re not concerned that she might have a tumour or anything like that.

Therefore we are not gonna see her in this hospital. You can go to the CAMS community, team. So they then sent us in that direction, at which point the doctor told me it was gonna be,a number of years before we were gonna see anyone. So I decided, by the need to better understand the communication needs between us and her desire to look into the ticks and understand that better, to go privately.

So I found a great,local doctor who we were able to go and see, after a lot of assessing of the market actually, ’cause there’s an awful lot of options out there. we [00:16:00] weren’t seeking medication or anything at that time. If she came out with a diagnosis. I just wanted to understand what was going on so that we could be, armed with that knowledge. So I got my diagnosis. Then a little while later, she got her diagnosis and here we are,

Laurence Pratt: Yeah. So if I understand that correctly,when you first were looking for her to be assessed, you mentioned like a holistic assessment. So it wasn’t ne was it not necessarily ADHD or autism or the ticks it, you just wanted to see what they suggested before you went down a more specific route.

Is that

Kat Frize: not quite, it was just that, it was holistic in the sense that we saw the same clinicians

Laurence Pratt: I see,

Kat Frize: those conditions. And I chose a psychiatrist who could actually look at the tics as well, thetic disorder, to tell us whether that was a TIC disorder, whether it was something else, whether it was Tourettes. So what I didn’t want, because of course you can go and take your child for an ADHD assessment and

Laurence Pratt: yeah.

Kat Frize: well we think [00:17:00] this might be autism, or something else, or anxiety or whatever. I went in, arming the doctor with the information that I thought it was. Potentially this and this, and we would like to be assessed for both, but I also want you to look at the ticks that we’re, living with as well. And, I think because I’d gone in, for that, with that kind of holistic approach, it meant that we weren’t going to lots of different doctors. We were getting that really holistic view because otherwise the risk is that you go in, you see one person, you may or may not come out with a diagnosis, they might point you somewhere else as well as the kind of, I guess the kind of clinical context for the person that you’re sitting in front of.

It’s just not great experience for the family and the child.

Laurence Pratt: And I think also as well,when you suspect that it could, it, it might not just be ADHD, but it could be something else. and then, if. It, well, going down the NHS route, it’s a long time to wait. And [00:18:00] then also, if you’re going down the private route, it can be quite expensive as well to have those different things assessed at the same time.

So it can be quite a daunting decision to make and go, oh, well, you have to know quite a bit about what you think it might be in order to get the right set of assessments. and I suppose if the parent is ADHD, that decision paralysis can be quite challenging.

Kat Frize: yeah, it’s,it’s definitely challenging. 

Laurence Pratt: I thought the ADHD, assessment criteria was like a catch 22 test. It’s like, well, if you can get, if you can book the assessment, then you haven’t got it ’cause it was so complicated.

Kat Frize: yeah, it’s wild. It really is. There’s so much to it. And, and actually it’s been, so, it’s been really helpful for me in my role right now to have gone through these processes as both a, an adult woman going through the, the process, but also as a mother to [00:19:00] see what those pathways look like across various providers, the NHS and just understanding, the diagnostic process itself, the assessment process. Because we have a real opportunity to make it better for people

Laurence Pratt: Mm-hmm.

Kat Frize: while still keeping it clinically safe and robust and thorough and the highest possible quality standards, we should be looking at every single opportunity about how we can improve the overall experience and make it accessible. Because the very fact is that, I mean, the condition itself makes it hard enough to go through these processes, the pre-assessment forms and the waiting and everything. But there’s such a high proportion of people who have ADHD who are also living with comorbidities, which they may or may not be aware of.things are against us.

Laurence Pratt: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think also, I mean, you mentioned, we spoke about the communication issues and I think in the workplace, understanding [00:20:00] everybody’s potential, different approaches to communication or how communication lands,it could be at home within the family, but it could be, in the workplace.

it, I think it’s so important to be able to identify what those are for each person. and yeah, have that understanding for yourself, but also as a, as part of a team. It can really change things for people, in, I think.

Kat Frize: I could not agree more. And actually I have felt, so, I feel like I’ve had an awful lot of growth throughout this period of my life because not only do I have a better understanding of myself and how I work, how I best receive and deliver information, but also how to, navigate those communication challenges with someone whose brain works differently to mine. But I’ve been able to carry that forward at work. and we do things like have, read me documents. So I have a guide to cat, [00:21:00] the CAT instruction manual. And I really like to, when people come on board, I really like to reassure them that I might come across as a bit blunt sometimes.

It’s not me being blunt, I’m just thinking about the next thing already. ’cause there’s a lot of other things that I need and want to get to, and I operate at 500 miles an hour, so I don’t really have a time for a lot of the kind of fluff that, you might find cushions a message a little bit more. So, being able to actually tell someone that and reassure them, particularly when, again, ADHD people have rejection sensitivities and, proactively sharing that message can be the difference between coming to work and knowing where you stand and how best to communicate and work and enjoy your day and actually going home at the end of the day.

Anxious, second guessing that conversation that you had in the morning and So it’s been great.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah, I mean, I think for me personally, that, rejection sensitive, dysphoria, it can be so paralysing, I mean, I mean, you mentioned at the beginning, in terms of like fear of [00:22:00] failure, it was a big thing for you,that can debilitate me in terms of not being able to get something done because you’re so worried about,not doing it well enough for failing at it, that you then, don’t do it.

Kat Frize: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that, really a particularly when I started university, that was a big problem. And I think one of the things that’s helped me the most actually get over that is being a parent and recognising that I don’t have the, I feel guilty. If I don’t go for things and I don’t do the things because I’m preaching to these beautiful young people that they need to go out there and they need to seize the day and they need to do what they want to do.

And if I don’t live that and model that, then I’m failing them. And that in itself is a problem, So I, really helped me. I do wonder sometimes if had I not become a parent, I would still be struggling [00:23:00] to the level that I did when I was,back at university with that.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah,I think for me, becoming a parent took that, it took me out of my, my world being just me and my perspective to having to open up and question whether I was doing things correctly and what I responsible for that going the way it went. And I think that change in, perception, really helped unlock a lot of things for me.

so I wonder if you could take me from the period of the diagnosis, and then moving through to where you are now and on this journey to, working with Care ADHD and some of the things that changed for you thing, things that you put in place and why you were then drawn to, to what you’re doing now.

Kat Frize: Yeah, absolutely. So, I was diagnosed not long before I started here, maybe within a year or so in the lead up to joining. [00:24:00] I was already taking medication. And I think it was that experience actually of starting medication that, again, it was almost like this light bulb moment where suddenly you realise that, oh, people can have a quiet brain and I can, in a way that I didn’t know was possible that many other people probably operate in daily. so that I felt like was quite a, it was an important time, I think for that transition because I was transitioning in my life anyway. We’d actually been living overseas in Asia for, the good part, or the best part of two years I think we’d been there and travelling around with the kids. We were world schooling that experience was fantastic. but I had been in my last role for a little while and it had become, you know, it wasn’t filling my um, cup as it perhaps, oh, my light’s gone off. ’cause I’m in the office and it’s [00:25:00] not, uh, it’s not moving. Sorry, I’m gonna

Laurence Pratt: That’s okay.

I can see, I can see you perfectly. I should have said that.

Kat Frize: That’s okay.

Laurence Pratt: It was just fun watching you.

Kat Frize: Me just doing a little dance

Laurence Pratt: The YMCA. Yeah.

Kat Frize: so it wasn’t really filling my cup,as it once was. And I’d had various other kind of projects on the side and things that I’d been involved with, over the years as I always have. And I’m not one person who can do one thing very, easily and feel satisfied. we just naturally came to this sort of inflexion point really. And, an opportunity came up to support care in the first instance with setting up some of the systems that they needed to be set up. And, and then actually to step into a role where initially my primary focus was on, the customer experience and looking at that end to end-to-end journey, which was something that I had, been involved with previously in a former role. I’ve always worked remotely and [00:26:00] I’ve been remote for about 20 years working in the digital sector with different software companies and different service companies. And, one of my past roles I was,in a kind of product position, operations and product. So it was really exciting to get back into that. And, and then that role evolved with the needs and I, eventually moved into the position of, chief operating Officer about six months later after working with the business for six months. And I think what’s been really, fulfilling about being here at this particular point is because, I was here within about six months, five, six months of care starting to offer the service and actually going live with our operations.

So I’ve been able to see it through a really, important period of its development and growth. And with that, your impact is huge. you and we are dopamine seekers, right? So when you can come in every single day and get that satisfaction of saying, yes, I’ve done this, and this, and [00:27:00] here’s this immediate impactvery rewarding.

And then the added kind of reward of knowing that I’m supporting people like me and families like mine. And, that is, it gives it a real sense of purpose.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah,

Kat Frize: I’ve been just absolutely loving it and, I’m a kind of healthcare convert now. I’m not sure that I’ll ever leave.

Laurence Pratt: no,I think you’ve hit on something, really important in terms of that sense of purpose. I think for a lot of people with ADHD, it’s probably due to a lot of, time blindness and disorganisation. But, work can take over their lives and I suppose, it’s nice if you can be paid well, but if it’s gonna take up so much of your time and your, mental capacity and space, you might as well get that added bonus of feeling like you’re actually doing something of purpose as well.

Yeah. And I do think that for us in particular, we’ve got such a great opportunity to have an impact in a way that, there [00:28:00] aren’t many providers that have been able to do that yet. we’ve brought together this amazing expertise from the world of healthcare and the NHS, and we’ve married it up with this team from the digital sector, and we’re bringing those two worlds together to tackle a problem that’s been difficult to tackle up to now.

So we’re talking about care, ADHD now,and I wonder just for the listeners whether it might be, worth, if you give us a sort of a brief, understanding of, why Care ADHD exists and what makes you different.

Kat Frize: Yeah, so Care, ADHD was founded actually by, our, founding team. Mark Patterson is a, psychiatric nurse. he’s still registered and he had previously been running, ADHD services for the NHS. He was a service director in the NHS. And he was very frustrated by,the challenges that prevented him from getting the, patients, the access to the services that they needed.

And he felt that we could [00:29:00] do better.so he set out to create something that was able to support more people in a more streamlined way with a real focus on their experience. And, and ultimately save the NHS money and support the NHS because we can take a lot of the, the load that at the moment they’re not necessarily, best place to be able to support.

So it was just, it was an opportunity and I think, knowing people from the digital world and being able to see that there’s a gap here and we could approach this from a slightly different angle and the both, but the best out of both of those worlds to solve the problem in

Laurence Pratt: Yeah.

Kat Frize: way.

Laurence Pratt: So what were those frustrations that Mark was having in terms of the, I mean, from my experience, it takes a long time to, to get diagnosed, through the NHS. but so, so it was, it simply that, issue the time it takes or were there other issues,that we’ve

Kat Frize: so I [00:30:00] think, the kind of landscape has evolved a lot since care was originally conceived and set up. But ultimately, I guess the, the roadblocks that were in place to actually be able to streamline things, to be able to make change. There’s, I don’t, the NHS is a wonderful organisation, but there are a lot of, stage gates to things that make it difficult to make change. And,we live in this world where actually if we wanna build something to improve things, we can just go and do that. We, there’s nothing stopping us. And it for, I haven’t worked in the NHS, but from what I’m told, it’s very difficult to just wake up in the morning and go, you know what? I think we can do better.

Let’s change it this way. And this way it has to go through three years of,committees and sign offs and approvals and, funding applications and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So just, it’s such a big machine and my understanding is that it’s [00:31:00] very difficult to make change in a big machine like that.

Laurence Pratt: Mm-hmm.

Kat Frize: to step outside of that and think creatively and think, how can we use technology, for example, to improve this experience? can we, introduce roles that are completely alien to the NHS? So we are a product led organisation. We’ve got a product function, and the point of the product team is it’s about looking at the outcomes that we want for our patients and making sure that our service and the software that we create to deliver that service gets patients and their families to that outcome that they are working towards in the most streamlined, comfortable, excellent way that we possibly can. And so we can design in a really bespoke, intentional way that, the NHS would struggle to be able to do, because, for example, they don’t have those kind of functions there. And if they wanted to bring that kind of a team in to think about or design something in a slightly different way,

Laurence Pratt: Yeah.

Kat Frize: wouldn’t necessarily have the resources.

it’s tough.[00:32:00] 

Laurence Pratt: Yeah. And I think we touched on it earlier, like that customer experience, user experience, particularly in the, diagnostic process. And I was saying, I found it really difficult. it’s that kind of thing. When you are working with an organisation as fantastic as the NHS is, it’s, is unfortunately slow moving and all those things that you have to, all those hoops that you have to go through, it’s like that is big red tape admin nightmare that has, unfortunately they have to do, but for the person with ADHD or whatever the neurodivergent condition is, some of these processes are really challenging.

And it’s not designed for the customer or the user, or the patient in mind. and I think, yeah, no, that’s a fascinating,

Kat Frize: As a, sorry, interrupt

Laurence Pratt: yeah, no, I was actually reaching for a word there. So you came in at the right.

Kat Frize: That’s one of my, that’s one of my, traits and I’m very aware of it, so I apologise. I don’t mean to interrupt you, but as an [00:33:00] example, one of the things that slows them down, I think is, if you are to and see a psychiatrist in the NHS to have, an assessment, you might sit in front of that person for four hours doing a full diva interview.

And, we are able to put systems in place to allow us to gather certain information from patients beforehand in a really streamlined way. And then use technology to help us,prep so that when we go that appointment and we meet that patient, we don’t need to take up a whole day like perhaps the NHS would because they don’t have that, that, the kind of systems in place to support it.

We can really focus on the fact that we have this information from the patient already, so let’s really get into the, these details and it makes those interactions very meaningful

Laurence Pratt: Mm-hmm.

Kat Frize: you’ve done all the prep work, you’ve done all that legwork that doesn’t have to be done live. so yeah, that’s one of the ways that I think we are able to deliver [00:34:00] in, in a slightly different way to the NHS.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah.and I think, that assessment process can also be quite, I mean this, I dunno if this is a bug bear of mind, but it, you know,I think particularly with children, if they’re getting assessed because they’re having challenges at school, sometimes a lot of the classroom environment I is what is triggering,ADHD traits, like, you know,shutting down one part of the brain because, they’re thinking about, everybody else is gonna know the answer to this.

I’m not gonna know the answer. They get scared and then they can’t function. And I think when you go to have an assessment with somebody, you’re in a completely different environment. And, then you might come across as really focused and engaged and none of those things appear. And so it, I think it, it can be quite challenging to feel like the assessment process,does capture all of the information that you need, to make a good assessment.[00:35:00] 

Kat Frize: I’ve never seen my daughter sit. So still as, when we sat in that psychiatrist’s office, I honestly was, my mind was blown. I was actually anxious about what the outcome was gonna be because she sat so still. And this is a child who has to be doing handstands and cartwheels. When we’re having bedtime stories.

She can’t even sit next to me and listen to a story. It’s, you know?it is wild. and that’s why one of the reasons why so many women have been missed because they are so good at masking and Yeah. it’s a big challenge. I’m glad that we’re talking about it now. it’s gonna release a lot of pressure on a lot of people that they can take that mask off.

Laurence Pratt: Well, I think, you talk about the masking and, I think it can be different, between parents as well. Like with one particular parent. a child might feel that they can’t mask because, one, one parent might not acknowledge certain things and say, no, let’s get on [00:36:00] with it.

and therefore the one that is a bit more sympathetic then gets the mask taken off and then has to deal with all the,the unmasking, which can be stressful as well. And again, going back to that communication thing is that’s a difficult thing to then take is, all the energy coming out or all the emotional dysregulation.

And so being patient with that is, is quite, a challenge as well.

Kat Frize: I like the spoon theory. Do you know about

Laurence Pratt: Yeah.

Kat Frize: Yeah.

Laurence Pratt: could explain it for the listeners.

Kat Frize: Yeah, so the idea is that, you wake up in the morning and you’ve got a set number of spoons for the day and different things, different activities, different tolls on your, your energy. They take up different number of spoons, but it’s really helpful to, again, as a tool to be able to get to the end of the day and sit there and have a child cartwheeling across the bed and be able to say, you know what, kiddo, I’ve run outta spoons today and I know you really want me to read one more chapter and I will, but only if you can come and sit down.

’cause I just don’t have the spoons to be able to raise my [00:37:00] voice and project over there whilst you’re cartwheeling.

Laurence Pratt: Mm-hmm.

Kat Frize: wanna quiet little snuggle in the story. so it’s helpful I think to have those kind of ways to be able to talk about energy levels and, what you can give, and recognising what you’ve got left in the draw.

Laurence Pratt: I mean, I think also particularly, in, in neurodivergent families where there’s a parent and a child, I think it’s particularly important for the child to understand. ’cause at that early age, if they are going through the process of getting diagnosed or trying to understand it, when they are aware that there are challenges that they are, they have, and it’s, reverberating within the family, they can feel a sense of shame about that and want to figure it out.

and there’s one, the one thing that I look at in, in my coaching is, like, have you ever read the Chimp Paradox by, Steven, professor Steven Peters?

Kat Frize: I’m familiar with it.

Laurence Pratt: Yeah. So it’s, it is basically, as our brains have evolved, we’ve got like the human e evolution of the brain is this really [00:38:00] logical part, really powerful part of the brain.

and that takes up a lot of the fuel, the spoons concept. it takes, if you’ve got 20 spoons,most neurotypical people will be able to fill those each night from a good night’s sleep and lots of nice food. But with ADHD, because there’s fewer dopamine receptors, it’s less any, anyway, the, what kicks in afterwards is the sort of what people might call the reptilian brain, or Stephen Peter Peters calls it the chimp brain, which is going on fight, flight, and freeze, reactions instincts.

And so understanding that there’s those two parts of our brain or two pilots navigating at any one time. And it depends who’s got the energy to do so. I think it relieves you personally of, I mean, it doesn’t make excuses for you. It just says, ah, the reason I did that, and I re, I don’t, I regret that I did it that way.

I wish I could have done is because I hadn’t got the energy, I was maybe a bit worried about something and my chimp took over [00:39:00] fight, flight of freeze. And so if you can externalise that and use those different sort of personalities to observe the behaviour, you don’t internalise all of that behaviour and therefore struggle with the shame of going, why do I do that?

Why don’t I understand? It’s like, okay, I can observe I wanted to do this, but I did that instead. Why did that happen? And then you can remove a bit of that shame I think from,all the challenges that you’re having.

Kat Frize: Yeah. I think it’s,it is really helpful to be able to have those conversations and recognise that, and I think it’s important for us as parents to be able to share that information with our kids as early as we possibly can because it’s really damaging when a child grows up in life without being able to recognise that and be aware of that.

Laurence Pratt: And it’s not their fault, Hmm.I think perhaps also as well, I mean, we, we haven’t used the term labels, much in this conversation, but I think there can [00:40:00] be a difference between parents who. realise that they, are neurodiverse to neurotypical parents dealing with children that might need a diagnosis.

I think there’s a fear in neurotypical parents of going, oh, then they’re gonna be labelled with this thing, and I don’t understand. Whereas for, if you’ve got ADHD or autism, and then you are saying, I want them to get diagnosed because if I, if only I’d have been diagnosed earlier, I would’ve been able to understand it better.

And I think there’s an understanding of how important it is for someone to navigate through their life, understanding how to, where the, where’s the manual for this brain.

Kat Frize: Definitely. and also, understanding it, but being able to get whatever it is that they need to support them through the different chapters of their lives, because we need different things at different times. and I mean, I think about when I was at uni for example, and what would the [00:41:00] outcome of being had I at that time knew about my ADHD and had been able to take the medication that I take now? I think about the relationships that I’ve had in the past and how I may have navigated those differently had I been more aware of my communication style and all of that kind of stuff. yeah. And one of the other things that really was important to me when it came to, understanding our daughter’s traits and why, she thought and behaved the way that she did, was about actually our son and how I was responding to their behaviour and whether it was, equal and fair because, we have to accommodate each other when there is a reason behind our different communication styles.

And we’re not just being difficult. but that’s not always easy for an eight, nine, 10-year-old to interpret and understand. So being able to I don’t know, shed some light on, on that for them as well, and give them the tools that they need to be able to navigate this [00:42:00] family and this home that they live in with, the chaos or the,the literal conversations or whatever it is that you, you have at

Laurence Pratt: And I think that is a big challenge. I mean, I, I remember my childhood, literally you were looking to your siblings to be like, I mean, I was the youngest, so I was like, well, I want to have, I want to be allowed to do that when I’m that age, because they were, so, you’re literally comparing everything to how, evenly you are being treated.

But now we’re realising that people need different things. And so it’s really important to, to communicate those things that people need so that people can understand why you might be treating one child in one way. And another child in another. And I think that’s the challenge that they’re having at schools as well, is that schools are trying to catch up with accommodations.

But, it’s really difficult when we are just understanding, what those accommodations could be. And then, allowing everybody else to understand that a child might need this [00:43:00] and, another child might need that, without it, affecting everybody else going, well, why can’t I do that?

Kat Frize: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Laurence, if you get me onto schools, I’ll be going down a complete different rabbit hole. it’s an area that I’m really passionate about and I’ve got big ambitions for us in the next kind of of years to really support the school system. The teachers families are engaged with it ’cause there’s a lot of great work going on, but I think there’s still a lot of things to do.

Laurence Pratt: absolutely. No,I agree. totally. I think it’s, it’d be wonderful to tackle that or, have another conversation about that,at a different time. But just to wrap things up,I’m looking at the time and I realise we’re running out. You’ve probably got, other calls to do, but just for the listeners and, if they’re interested in looking, to see what Care ADHD can offer, could you just give a little, summarise a summary of, the d different services that people can go and investigate and start the journey there.

Kat Frize: Yeah, absolutely. So we support, children and [00:44:00] adults at any point in their journey. So whether you’ve already had a diagnosis or whether you are yet to be assessed. and we currently support, the ADHD pathway as well as the autism pathway. We’ve got some amazing clinicians who are very experienced in different areas and specialisms. and on, for example, the children’s pathway, you, if you were to leave with a diagnosis of some sort, you can then access our kind of non-pharmacological offering, shall we say. So, it’s a skills and supports pathway. It allows you to get psychoeducation support with behavioural interventions.

So it’s not just about medication, but of course if you do want to look at medication as an option, whether it’s for an adult or for a child, then that’s also something that we can do. We do have a prescribing service. we offer services privately as well as via the NHS, so anyone can go to their GP if they’re in England, under the right to choose framework and ask for a referral to us, and, [00:45:00] we’ll be able to support you on that journey.

Laurence Pratt: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, and having a wonderful conversation. And like I say, I would definitely love to come, have you back on, and talk about,schools and education and everything else.

Kat Frize: I love that. I’d love that. Absolutely. And I’ll, get in a room with the light on next time.

Laurence Pratt: Oh, it looks like you’re in a disco. It’s fine.

Kat Frize: at the moment. It is, the screen next to me is going off now, so I’m sorry. Anyone watching, wondering what earth’s going on?

Laurence Pratt: Okay.

Kat Frize: It’s been lovely. Really

Laurence Pratt: you, Kat. Take care.

Kat Frize: Yeah, you too.