[00:00:00] Introduction and Guest Welcome

 [00:00:00] 

[00:00:08] Laurence: Hello and welcome to another episode of the ADHD goals. I. Podcast, I have a fantastic guest for you today. Her name is Heather Shannon and she is a certified sex therapist and host of the chart topping.

Ask a Sex Therapist podcast with over 12 years in private. Practice. Heather helps people in committed relationships who have lost their sexy spark to feel close and passionate again. Heather has been featured in publications such as Cosmopolitan Women’s Health, glamor, and Self Magazine, as well as on podcasts including Shameless Sex and the Horny Housewife.

She is a sex and relationship. Expert for the peanut app, which serves 2.5 million women throughout all stages of life. [00:01:00] 

[00:01:00] Heather Shannon’s Background and Expertise

[00:01:00] Laurence: So I’m gonna ask you what the peanut app is, but first of all, yeah, welcome to the show, Heather. How are you doing? 

[00:01:07] Heather Shannon: I’m good. I’m happy to be here. And this is, this is a fun topic for me, so I’m excited to discuss ADHD and sex and relationships.

[00:01:14] Laurence: Yeah, I think it’s, I, through life experience, I think, now, being a late diagnosed ADHD, I look back at relationships and go, oh, okay. 

So I’m sure the listeners will be thinking the same. So we’ll be really eager to ask lots and lots of questions.

[00:01:32] Understanding the Peanut App

[00:01:32] Laurence: so what, before I ask you about yourself, tell me about the PE Peanut app.

What’s that? 

[00:01:38] Heather Shannon: Yeah, I think it actually was founded in the uk. So it’s, an app for, it started as almost like a Tinder for new moms to make friends. So it was almost like a make friends with other new moms by swiping right left and messaging and meeting up with them. And, I’m not even sure entirely how it came across my radar, but.

I think I wound up reaching out to [00:02:00] them and I was like, oh, I see that you have like experts and people who are kind of pros. Oh, they found me. That’s how they, that’s how I found them. They found me on Instagram, which was like super random. I had a very small following and they were like, Hey, do you, would you ever wanna do like a guest, pod where you just host this, audio call?

Kind of like Clubhouse. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Clubhouse app. No, it is like a audio only, but you can like, see little circles of people’s faces, their little pictures, of who’s on the call. And so, yeah, so it was just an audio only. They don’t record ’em. So like nothing, no one has to worry that anything they say there is gonna wind up somewhere else.

And so for me, people can just ask me their sex questions and so it’s a lot of like new moms. It’s a lot of people who are pregnant. Just kind of like how those phases of life impact their relationship and their sex life, which, well, I is a lot. It’s a lot. I’m gonna, 

[00:02:50] Laurence: I’m gonna confess, when I read that, I thought, Ooh, my, because we’re, because you’re a sex therapist.

I thought, wow, that’s gonna be a sex app. And I was thought, what is [00:03:00] that? What is the relationship between the peanuts? Because I’ve been, no, it’s 

[00:03:06] Heather Shannon: really not a sex app at all, but they’re. Open conversation about sexuality, which is nice. 

[00:03:11] Laurence: Well, I’ve been going to a lot of, standup comedy nights and, the younger comedians talk about, like, this new, they keep talking about this dating app, which I’ve never heard of.

Well, ’cause I’m in relationship and, when I, was, Dating it. The app that we used was Hinge, but there seems to be, there seems to be one called field now. Oh, yes. which, all the kids are talking about. A little spicier. A little spicier, yeah. but may maybe we’ll get onto topics such as, things that related to field.

B

[00:03:42] Heather’s Personal ADHD Journey

[00:03:42] Laurence: ut first of all, tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and your own journey with ADHD. 

[00:03:48] Heather Shannon: Yeah, it has been a very non-linear journey, which I think is appropriate for somebody with ADHD. Yeah. so growing [00:04:00] up. I, there were some jokes in my family, so it’s like I, I was always good at school and so I don’t, I think that’s part of why I didn’t get diagnosed, but like, I’d go to my grandpa’s house and I, every time I would leave, I’d be like, where did I put my shoes?

And then they would start joking about it. Okay, everybody, where did Heather put her shoes this time? Yeah. And then I did, Study abroad and my family joked about, okay, what country is, how they’re gonna lose her passport in? I went through 13 student IDs in college. 

[00:04:28] Laurence: Yeah. 

[00:04:30] Heather Shannon: And the office that would print them, they’d charge you every time, right?

And they started feeling so bad for me that they like gave me a free one here and there. Because 

[00:04:37] Laurence: there’s ADHD tax. 

[00:04:40] Heather Shannon: Yeah, exactly. There is ADHD tax and then. So when I was in my late twenties, I went and got tested. I had like a full like neuropsych evaluation and they were like, Nope, you don’t have ADHD.

And I was like, really? Are we sure? And they were something like, your memory might not be able to keep up with your intelligence or something like that, which is [00:05:00] basically saying your brain goes really fast, which is basically ADHD.  Then later in my thirties I went to,

What was it? It was, neurofeedback. ’cause I was like, I could use some help focusing. 

[00:05:10] Laurence: Right. 

[00:05:11] Heather Shannon: And so I was, they did a shorter test, but kind of a similar thing. And then they actually like put these electrode things on your brain. 

[00:05:20] Laurence: Wow. 

[00:05:20] Heather Shannon: And, it wasn’t like scary, but it’s like this weird cap where they put this gel in there and mess up your hair.

I’m imagining 

[00:05:26] Laurence: back to the future 

[00:05:28] Heather Shannon: where probably a little 

[00:05:28] Laurence: bit like that, I don’t know. 

[00:05:30] Heather Shannon: And so they’re like, Nope, you don’t have ADHD. It’s just that sometimes your brain goes too fast and sometimes it shuts down and it goes too slow. And I’m like, that also sounds like a DH. 

[00:05:40] Laurence: Yeah. 

[00:05:41] Heather Shannon: And so finally, my primary care guy now, I.

Because I think he takes the time to get to know you. 

[00:05:49] Heather Shannon: To get to know me and, has seen me over the course of a couple years, he’s like, oh yeah, you have ADHD. And I was like, thank you for validating this. And then my parents, my mom was initially like, no, you don’t [00:06:00] have it.

And cause she was a teacher and so I think she was used to maybe like hyperactive kids or how it presents in boys or something like that. But when I sent like my dad, especially the list of here’s the signs of ADHD in adult women, he was like, oh, you have every one of those. 

[00:06:15] Laurence: Yeah. 

[00:06:17] Heather Shannon: So I was like, yes.

Thank you. So I think for me, my journey was like kind of a lot of invalidation. Yeah. and it’s like, because I think symptoms can present differently. But I’ve also had people who have ADHD kind of say,I was on a podcast a few years ago and he has ADHD that host, and he was like, oh, you seem like one of us though.

I was like, I know. Yeah, I know. So, yeah, so now I’m proudly owning the ADHD diagnosis. 

[00:06:43] Laurence: Good stuff. Yeah.

[00:06:44] Path to Becoming a Sex Therapist

[00:06:44] Laurence: and so what led you into the world of being a sex therapist? 

[00:06:51] Heather Shannon: Well, I think if we connected again to the ADHD, I get bored pretty easily. So there’s that. And talking about sex and relationships is not [00:07:00] boring.

I, it was again, a windy road. So, I started college as a math major. I have a finance degree. I was a market research analyst. And after going through some of those experiences, it was I kind of had the belief that like, I’m never gonna find my thing. I’m just gonna hop around from thing to thing.

It’s so hard, almost like imagining myself finding something that’s like a great fit. And so what I realised though from my first job was, first of all, I cannot sit at a desk all day and like push paper like that. That was not gonna work. And so my dad’s cousin was a life coach and she, I was like, Ooh, that seems so cool being a life coach.

She’s like, I’ll coach you about your career. And so through that I wound up deciding to get a master’s in counseling. I was a high school counselor for a while. I liked that. Yeah. I didn’t like the bureaucracy of it though. So again, so much of it is the ADHD. Yeah. It’s like we don’t do well with, bureaucracy and, constraints and excess rules and systems and all that.

Yeah. So I started a private practice on the side with a friend from grad school [00:08:00] and I was like, oh, I like this. And so I kind of built it up and it was going well and then eventually I was doing that full time and I had some clients that were just kind of brave and we’re Hey, I.

Like to cross dress or I’m not sure if I’m trans, does that mean that, or I am, I’m into men as well as women, and that makes me deeply uncomfortable and I’m drinking excessively because of how uncomfortable I am. And it’s the only way that I’m able to act on it is by getting like, blackout drunk.

And it’s like, well, that, that’s not healthy. No, that’s not good. Yeah. So maybe we need to work on getting rid of some of the like shame and stigma around things. I had several clients where like substance abuse was kind of overlapping with sex, whether it was like traumatic sex or maybe growing up in a conservative religious environment.

Where it was kind of like in order to overcome the inhibitions, they were using alcohol in an unhealthy way. And it just made me realize like this is actually really important to people’s, like sense of who [00:09:00] they are, their safety in the world, how they treat themselves, addictive compulsive behavior.

And I felt like I was able to create a safe space for them. And I realized there’s just not a lot of those safe spaces to like really talk about and process things openly. And so I, I started thinking about doing the training to be a sex therapist and like get that specialty, but it’s just, it’s a lot, if you wanna actually get certified, it’s at least an 18 month process.

It’s a lot more expensive than the other, continuing education options. But when I realized that the demand was there also that’s what kind of pushed me over the edge. I was like, okay, this will kind of allow me to kind of set myself up better as well. And it’s something I’m really interested in.

And I had been somewhat on my own personal journey too, and honestly through being asked this question so often Yeah. Of like, why did you become a sex therapist? Or what made you, it’s kind of helped me realize like, oh, there’s even more factors, like I wasn’t brought up super religiously conservative, but like there’s some of that.

I also [00:10:00] have a little bit of OOCD and so there was some like kind of fear around, sex and I think my anxiety kind of latched onto that. And I think there was some, and probably still is some kind of, Fear of intimacy or avoidance or fear that things are gonna go bad based on kind of what I saw with my parents’, marriage and divorce.

And so I think a lot of it was like, this is interesting. I can help people. It’s something I wanna learn about more too, just on a personal level. And so yeah, that’s how I got here. 

[00:10:29] Laurence: Well that, yeah, that’s, it sounds like a, a very ADHD route into it. 

[00:10:35] Heather Shannon: Yeah, a hundred percent. 

[00:10:38] ADHD and Relationships

[00:10:38] Laurence: So, so let’s talk about ADHD and relationships and sex.

Yeah. I have written down, a list of bullet points of things that I would think I would find interesting to know more about. Okay. I’ll just go through those lists, that list. Now. I’ve written down RSD, so rejection, sensitive dysphoria, novelty [00:11:00] communication, jealousy, confidence, libido.

And then since you were talking then about addiction, I think also, addiction is quite common in inhibition and ADHD. Yeah. But that can also be linked to masking and also it be, uh, not knowing the boundaries because, in life and society, we have, boundaries and rules, but sometimes in sex, those rules are flipped on their head for, for, role play and things like that.

And I think for somebody with RSD and. And not being able to communicate, understanding those rules and. Just fearing go, making a mistake and getting rejected. Yeah. That is, is a huge thing. So where would you wanna start? Oh, 

[00:11:47] Heather Shannon: I, that was such an ADHD way of asking the question.

It’s so fun to be with other ADHD people. Honestly. I think I’ve always gravitated towards other people with ADHD. And I don’t advertise. The Neurodivergence, really? 00:12:00] And I would say 80% of my clients are, either on the spectrum or have ADHD or something neurodivergent. Which is super interesting.

Let’s see, where should we start? 

[00:12:09] Laurence: Would I 

[00:12:09] Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD)

[00:12:09] Heather Shannon: think the RSD is, I think a good starting point, maybe. 

[00:12:14] Laurence: Yeah.

[00:12:14] Heather Shannon: it’s so, yeah. And how, I’m guessing your audience is already familiar with. With the concept. 

[00:12:19] Laurence: Yeah. I mean, one of my most popular episodes was on RSD, so. Okay. I, yeah. I mean, I’ll, for me, like for example, one of, one of the classic, when people start talking about their sex lives, it is like.

Talk dirty. Yeah. And I am so, I’m terrified of talking dirty because I just think something’s gonna come outta my mouth and they’ll get the ick 

[00:12:44] Heather Shannon: Oh. 

[00:12:46] Laurence: And so. I’m like, no way.

[00:12:47] Heather Shannon: yeah. You’re like, you can’t make me. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, I’ve definitely had a journey with that myself, where I think in.

For sure, like [00:13:00] up through my twenties at least, the early twenties, there was just sort of like a, I don’t wanna put myself out there, I don’t wanna like tell anyone that I like them. I don’t wanna like, yeah, say I have a crush on you or pursue anything. And I think part of it is being socialized as a woman where we’re kind of like the man is supposed to do that, which is, probably a little silly at this point, but like there’s still something to that and.

So it was easier, I think also to just kind of hide in a sense. It’s like, oh, I’m not gonna put myself out there. But then I think as I’ve learned through helping clients and through my own life, we lose out on a lot. When we’re not kind of taking the risks and putting ourself out there.

And so when I’m working with couples, for example, I will. To help them, create a safe container. So, so a lot of what I’m doing with people is sort of building the emotional intimacy and then creating the safe container for sex where people, are very aware of consent and feeling emotionally safe to be vulnerable and to [00:14:00] open up and to be physically naked and like all of the things.

And so I think when people have the safety, that can help with taking risks. And I think there might also need to be a little bit more. Reassurance, in the relationship. But yeah, I’m thinking of like a couple clients that I’m working with and, I, I do think it’s important for them to feel special. It can be like very triggering if, exploring ethical non-monogamy, I think can be.

Very tough with. ADHD and some rejection sensitive dysphoria. Um, because there’s so many opportunities to feel rejected in a sense. 

[00:14:37] Laurence: I would, I mean, I’m not somebody who has, I. Ever considered that or had the impulse to do that? Yeah, because I often think that, and I, and this is probably less anecdotal and more opinion, but I always think that maybe in a lot of relationships, and maybe you can correct me if I’m wrong, but [00:15:00] sometimes the non-monogamy part comes from one person and the other person just goes, okay, if that will make you happy.

[00:15:07] Heather Shannon: yes. Yeah, 

[00:15:07] Laurence: you’re 

[00:15:09] Heather Shannon: correct. and it’s maybe not always that cut and dry, but it is, it does tend to be that there’s one person who’s fully on board and maybe one person who’s like, I could get partially on board or like, if we have certain boundaries around it or,but sometimes what happens is they disregard their own boundaries.

Because the per, and this might be the person with ADHD, so the person with RSD or ADHD would kind of be like. I don’t wanna lose you, so I have to go along with this because otherwise you would leave me and that would be terrible and awful and I’d feel rejected. But then what happens is they go along with it, they’re not really okay with it.

At every turn, they’re then having kind of like a, an upset or like a meltdown about, worrying like, oh, now my partner’s excited about someone else, or my partner’s giving someone else more attention. Or, this is gonna be the end of the relationship. Or, I don’t think I can handle [00:16:00] this.

And it’s kind of like. If you had represented how you truly felt earlier on, yes, that would be a risk, but it’s also a risk that lets you know, like if you’re truly aligned with this person. And if they’re willing to make some compromise too and meet you in the middle. So I, I do think a lot of the work that I do with people, is building like the inner security, so, yeah, like one of the methods I do is called Internal Family Systems and it kind of centers around self energy, which is.

This idea of that you’re calm and you’re confident and like that’s the essence of who you really are. And you have a sense of like clarity and knowing and also playfulness. And you don’t need things to be a certain way because you trust in your own ability to respond to things. So like that’s inner security.

So the more we can kind of access that, the more we’re gonna be able to kind of withstand the ups and downs. 

[00:16:52] Communication in Relationships

[00:16:52] Laurence: Absolutely be, I mean, I’ve written down communication has been Oh yeah. A huge factor. Yeah. And I would say that in my [00:17:00] younger life. Communication in relationships was minimal. And now, since my divorce, I’m in a new relationship, which is going, this is really well going really well.

Cool. Because we communicate. And I’m like, oh, wow. This is why people say you should communicate because it solves so many problems. 

[00:17:21] Heather Shannon: Oh my God, so many 

[00:17:22] Laurence: in and out of the bedroom in terms of like, just, if thing happens during the day and you go, I need to say that triggered me in some way and it made me think this, and you just resolve it straight away.

Yeah. And whereas before talking about sex. If we’d have had, my past relationships, if we’d have had a conversation about, oh, what do you like, and they answered, I would take what they said as I like this to be like, oh, but you don’t like what I’m doing then? And like, oh, yes, it is like, oh, right.

So it, everything isn’t, I take everything sort of as a, offense [00:18:00] or a rejection. Right, right. So. 

[00:18:02] Heather Shannon: That’s a good point. And like RSD is that it’s this is our lens, this is like our perspective on relationships is that, we’re not maybe fully worthy or we’re not like, quite good enough or, we can’t trust people that they’re gonna choose us or stick to what they said or whatever it is.

And I think sometimes it’s just saying like, there’s a default or there’s a kind of. I don’t know the right subjective, let’s say subjective, it’s not factual. But we’re kind of leaning in that direction of, well, I’m probably being rejected again. Here we go. So we kind of look through that lens.

And so that’s a way we can check ourselves. And I have my clients do this too, where you kind of, even just separate fact from fiction, so you could just do what are the facts of the situation. So the fact could be my partner said X, Y, Z. Okay? That, that, you can’t dispute that. Right.

The fiction is, what am I making that mean? So I think that people with RSD can at least ask [00:19:00] themselves what are the actual facts and what am I making that mean? And just to be able to start seeing the difference between the fact and the fiction. I. Can like really free you up. ’cause then you’re not quite so consumed by it.

You’re more like looking at it from a bird’s eye view and you can at least see like, okay, maybe that part of me is still saying I’m rejected, but I at least see that’s a story my brain’s making up. 

[00:19:22] Laurence: Yeah. I mean I’m thinking about, um, so I it went, I mean, me and my partner have been going out for, nearly four years now.

And so like in, in the, earlier days, like, you buy, fun presents and we bought like this book, which, is like, 101, 101 Kinky Things you could do. And we would basically where we, we would sort of. Read it and laugh about it because it’s like some really odd, fun thing.

No odd things. And so the reason I’m bringing this up is because I think in a scenario where you might say, oh. What do you like? And then their response is like, oh, I would like this [00:20:00] in an RSD situation. I’m thinking, well, they must’ve been thinking about that for ages and they hate what I’m doing, et cetera.

Ah-huh. 

But by using a book that is like, oh, let’s have a laugh at this book. It’s like, it’s an impartial thing where you can both, stand from the same side and go, oh, yeah. Yeah. And invariably, I mean, we, I’m. I’m really cautious of divulging to it. But you know, it doesn’t mean to say that, we’ve ticked off loads of things in it.

All I’m saying is it, it was a really great way to have a conversation about Yes. About stuff and invariably, you. Yeah, I’m she, you wind up 

[00:20:37] Heather Shannon: trying some things. 

[00:20:39] Laurence: I have to be very careful. It’s good. 

[00:20:41] Heather Shannon: Well, no, it’s good to have novelty. Yeah. 

[00:20:43] Novelty and Intimacy

[00:20:43] Heather Shannon: You don’t have to get into any details, but like it’s good to have novelty and I think that’s another thing with ADHD and for sure myself, like.

If I was having kind of the same type of routine sex all the time with someone long term, I would for sure lose interest. And that has happened. Yeah. And I think that it [00:21:00] does take having a partner who’s willing to put in the effort with you. So like, I think that’s awesome that you and your partner are like, we will look at this thing together, even if we’re mostly just laughing about it.

Yeah. just someone who’s gonna show up on the journey with you and be willing to kind of try new things. And again, that goes back to the safe space. Where you kind of have to feel safe to try new things with someone. Knowing half of them might not work out, half of them might be like super awkward.

Half of them might be like, we have no interest. This was like actively a turn off rather than a turn on. But then the other half are gonna work out and then those are gonna be the things you kind of can add to your repertoire, like ongoing to, to increase the variety excitement.

[00:21:41] Laurence: Yeah, I read a book a few years ago, called Come As You Are.

[00:21:45] Heather Shannon: Oh yeah. That’s like a classic in my field. Yeah. And 

[00:21:49] Laurence: it was a really interesting, concept, is that the right word? But what I learned about breaks and accelerators.

[00:21:57] Heather Shannon: yeah. 

[00:21:58] Laurence: And I think [00:22:00] understanding that, I think that, couples should read it. I, I think it’s mainly aimed at women, but it does say, get your partner to read this.

Yeah. and yeah, just understanding that there will be understanding what your partner’s breaks are. So, for context that is, things that, just sort of instantly turn you off a little bit. Yes. And so if you are the partner and you’re trying to initiate something and you.

If you’re aware of what the breaks are, then you go, ah, okay. That’s not a rejection because of me. That’s because, the context is not right. Yes. 

[00:22:35] Heather Shannon: Yes. Okay. So I wanna say two things. So one, if people are dealing with RSD for sure, read The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. He has a whole chapter called Take Nothing Personally, and he really like breaks it down in such a beautiful way.

And when I read that, because when I was in a long-term relationship, my boyfriend at the time was like, it’s kind of hard to like. Give you feedback or communicate because you take everything really sensitively. And I was like, oh, I’m [00:23:00] like, I don’t want people to feel like they can’t give me feedback.

And then I kind of further reframed it as like anyone who’s great at anything actually, like actively welcomes feedback. And so I’m gonna like lean into it actually. And then this book really helped me just kinda be like, oh, truly nothing is personal like this. This is great. So that is one thing.

but it was about the brakes versus the accelerator. Yeah, so the analogy I give people is like, you can think of your sex drive like a car.

Yes. And so like you could be hitting the gas pedal so hard, but if the break is on, the car is not going anywhere. So you could be like, oh, my partner’s so sexy and we’re flirting and we’re discussing all these hot fantasies, but I’m really exhausted and stressed. Yeah. And it’s like, well, if that’s a turnoff and that’s killing your libido.

Then like, you’re probably not gonna get anywhere, and you have to address that properly before your sex life will kind of go where you want it to go. So anyways, I just wanted give people the car analogy. Yeah. 

What about, I mean, obviously in terms of general ADHD, executive [00:24:00] functioning things that Yeah, emotional control comes up a lot and I think, and connected to everything seems to be connected to RSD.

Um. What about jealousy? Talking about jealousy within relationships and how do you resolve that? 

[00:24:17] Heather Shannon: I mean, I think that mostly I do see that come up with clients who are doing ethical non monogamy.

[00:24:24] Understanding Emotional Triggers in Relationships

[00:24:24] Heather Shannon: just ’cause they’re like, kind of leaning into it. Like they’re leaning into other partnerships and, and I think that.

It can be very triggering for people. And so yeah, people will have kind of full on meltdowns or, I mentioned the internal family systems model that I use with people. And so it’s like we have our self energy, which is kind of how we wanna be operating. But we also have parts, so people probably heard of like your inner child or your inner critic.

Or if people have seen the movie inside Out, it’s kind of like that, it’s like there’s the joy part and there’s the sad part. And so I think people can definitely have like an insecure part that gets triggered [00:25:00] and Yeah. Even if it’s not ENM relationships, it can be like, oh well, someone slid into your dms or, I saw that you followed so and so on Instagram, they’re like, bikini model or something like that.

Or it could be like, oh, you were, talking that guy from working an awful lot, or, why does he need to be calling you after? Like there could be a lot of stuff like that. And I. I think it kind of comes down to like, what’s the kind of relationship you wanna have? How do you wanna be showing up in your relationship?

So I mean, a lot of like what I teach people is how to be more conscious in your relationships so that you’re not just kind of at the whim. Of whatever emotions you have.

[00:25:40] The Pathway to Passion Model

[00:25:40] Heather Shannon: But you know how to manage your emotions, so, so basically the way I work with people is this, I have a pathway to passion model, and there’s three main levels.

And the first level is emotional mastery. And the reason I start with that is because I. One, you wanna kind of have your priorities aligned with how you’re actually showing up in the world. Two, [00:26:00] communication like we talked about, and three, if you’re not able to manage your own emotions, how are you gonna truly listen to your partner?

Like what winds up happening is that I. Your partner says something and you’re so triggered that you like, don’t even pay attention to what they said. You’re not able to hold space for them and you’re just like, well, you were paying more attention to this other person, and you’re like, okay.

Like we’re not getting anywhere good at this point. And so to at least kind of be able to do that, like fact versus fiction thing, to realize your own stories. To be able to soothe yourself, whether it’s going on a walk or working out or like putting some great music on, like finding what works for you.

But it’s like you have to have that awareness. And so I think a lot of it is cultivating the awareness of like, oh, one of my parts took over. Self energy is left the building right now. Yeah. And I need to address that for myself before I can really be a good partner in this conversation. Yeah. so that’s foundational like.

If you start talking about really intimate and vulnerable sexual things or being, taking the risks to get [00:27:00] rejected or bringing up a fantasy, you have, and it’s like, if you don’t feel like you can manage your emotions well, and you and your partner haven’t created a safe space for that, it’s not gonna go well.

Yeah, 

[00:27:12] Laurence: because, I think for, I mean, there’s so many things I want to. Respond to it in that. 

[00:27:16] The Concept of Multiple Parts in the Brain

[00:27:16] Laurence: So, first of all, the concept of, having many different parts inside your brain. Yeah talk about it being like a pilot of your brain. Like, in, in a airplane you’ve got two pilots, one one’s a copilot, and one’s the pilot in charge.

[00:27:30] Laurence: I use a similar analogy, but I take mine from, the chimp paradox and so you’ve got a chimp brain and your human brain and just knowing that there are two competing pilots in your brain.

Yeah, that’s interesting. And one can take over. And it allows you to understand that not. You know when, whenever you make decisions and you go, I, I really, that didn’t align with where I wanted to, wanted this to end up. Yeah. Why did that? You can end up labeling yourself negatively and [00:28:00] saying, I always end up doing this rather than understanding.

I, my, my chimp brain was in charge there, and I need to, yes, I need to prepare for that. How can I soothe my chimp when that situation arises? 

[00:28:13] Heather Shannon: Yes. That’s a beautiful analogy. 

[00:28:15] Laurence: Yeah. 

[00:28:16] Dealing with Jealousy and Saboteurs

[00:28:16] Laurence: So in terms of jealousy, so Mo Yeah, understanding that I, that, that.

Element, the multiple parts inside your brain is really important, uhhuh. But another factor of things that I do with my coaching clients is what are your saboteurs? And my saboteur is my top saboteur is high achiever. Which sounds really great, but it’s not. Yeah, it does. it means that you are all of your status and your value.

Is based on the success of a, like project or whatever. Yep. And so you get all your, value externally and so you’ve got a real lower self-esteem. So if a project doesn’t go very well or whatever, then you are gonna, you are gonna [00:29:00] feel rubbish. Yes. And so why I mentioned that in terms of jealousy is that I have like, because I, that was my top saboteur.

There can be times where, if I’m not where I wanna be, you know it, professionally or whatever. 

Anybody that, my partner comes into contact with that I perceive as being successful, I automatically feel, a threat from, but I mean.

[00:29:23] Communication and Overcoming Insecurities

[00:29:23] Laurence: Communication has helped a lot in that. Yes. Because I, I will bring it up and we talk about it in this way, like, my chimp was triggered. 

[00:29:32] Heather Shannon: It sounds like I’m 

[00:29:33] Laurence: making excuses for myself, 

[00:29:35] Heather Shannon: but No, I think that’s a great way to talk about it that makes it less personal and less, difficult.

Yeah. 

[00:29:41] Laurence: Yeah. And so had I, had we, had we not had that communication channel open to us, I would’ve got myself into. Trouble, yes. You would’ve had a lot fights that I wouldn’t have been able to navigate my way through. Had we not have this open communication about.

Stuff that, that is triggering. So [00:30:00] yeah. I. That’s my contribution to jealousy. 

[00:30:03] Heather Shannon: No, that’s beautiful. And it’s funny, it’s like the words you’re using are different, but it’s the same thing. Yeah. As like the internal family systems model. I’m just gonna call it IFS from now on, but, it’s kinda like, oh, I had a part takeover or I had a chimp takeover.

And it also helps your partner know, it’s like, like if you’re giving your partner feedback about sex or about something that’s like a sensitive topic, if you say, well, a part of me is feeling this way, they kind of know. Most of you doesn’t feel that way, that you’re just representing one part, because that part is letting you know there’s something to express.

And I think that like if you’re receiving a message that it’s like, well, this part feels this way, it’s just. It’s easier to not be like, well, my partner doesn’t like me at all. It’s like, no, it’s just one of their parts. Yeah. It just kind of puts it in like right size, 

[00:30:48] Laurence: I think. I think that’s such an important thing to, to, because then two things can be true at the same time inside your head.

Yes. You can say, of course, logically I can see that is not a threat and it’s [00:31:00] just a normal thing. Right. But I’m tired and I feel really sad because my chimp is scared. Yes. And so, so. You can explain to your partner that, yes, I do trust you. Right? I do see that is completely, normal and,I don’t want to control you or anything like that, but I just want to say that I feel a bit scared.

Yeah. Because of that. And it makes it, I think, I hope it makes it easier to receive as well. But just on, on, I always have a concern now that I found this. Communication avenue. I then immediately go, well, am I gonna trip myself up and just over communicate and make everything so unsexy?

Because I’ve explained that’s the 

[00:31:44] Heather Shannon: tendency we have. 

[00:31:45] Laurence: Yeah. I, because I think if I reveal too much, then where’s my mystique? And,

[00:31:51] Laurence: if she knows that. He’s not doing that because he is really confident he’s doing that because, he’s scared that I’ll be, I’ll be rejected.

Yeah. It, I, so [00:32:00] I do think that communication is hugely important and has been a lifesaver for me, but I do also panic and go, am I gonna over communicate or give her the ick, or, or take away some mystique or anything like that. And I wonder what you might say on. Being cautious about over communication.

Is that a thing? or would you advise that people connect? I would say 

[00:32:22] Heather Shannon: like, she’s been with you four years. It’s okay. 

[00:32:25] Laurence: Yeah. 

[00:32:26] Heather Shannon: Okay. And also like I over communicate and I just own it. I’m like, that’s just how I am. Deal with it. Yeah. But it’s true. Like sometimes, people with ADHD, we tend to be very chatty.

I think at least half of podcast hosts have ADHD. Mm-hmm. Probably at least half of entrepreneurs as well but. But also there’s people who really like that. Like I think, I find other ADHD people pretty delightful to be around. So I, I think when you recognize that like, sure, there’s gonna be maybe annoyances where you’re like overthinking a little.

Just it’s like, okay, your partner might be a [00:33:00] little annoyed that day, but that’s also okay. Yeah. It’s like any relationship, especially a long-term one. Especially one if you’re like living with the person, like. You’re both gonna annoy each other sometimes just ’cause you’re human. Like I, I don’t even know if that’s like an ADHD thing.

It’s like everyone just has different annoying qualities at times. 

[00:33:22] Laurence: Yeah. 

[00:33:22] Heather Shannon: I mean, we just have to give each other grace. 

[00:33:25] Laurence: So I’m just conscious of the time that we got left and I, so, yeah. The last question I wanna, or less topic I wanna get into. Yeah, probably.

[00:33:32] Sex After Kids: Challenges and Advice

[00:33:32] Laurence: I can’t necessarily see an ADHD avenue for this, but I probably, I do think that.

For the listeners. I think a lot of my listeners will probably be at a similar age to me, have had kids in, been in relationships, had kids, and sex after kids can be, it’s a real big challenge that a lot of people talk about. And I wonder what your advice to couples that, have had kids and maybe Yeah.

Through that have [00:34:00] stopped having sex. How do they get their sex lives play? Yeah. 

[00:34:03] Heather Shannon: Yeah. And that’s kind of full circle. That’s a lot of what I talk about on the peanut app. 

[00:34:06] Laurence: Yeah. 

[00:34:07] Heather Shannon: And it is hard. I think one of the things I’ve noticed through like the discussions on Peanut is that people kind of underestimate, which just sounds weird.

They kind of underestimate having kids and they. The women I’m noticing are underestimating the impact on their bodies and their hormones. So part of it I think starts with like education and like level setting your expectations. It’s like if you’re two single people and you’re having a date night, it’s like.

It’s so different. You’re like buying a new outfit and you’re like grooming yourself really well, and you’re so eager and there’s so much anticipation and it’s new and exciting and then it’s like when you have kids, it’s like your sleep is worse. You have a whole new role in life and literally an entire human being who’s 100% [00:35:00] dependent on you to survive.

Like, it’s like when you put that in perspective. And then you may or may not have access to childcare, depending on if you live close to family and what your financial situation is and just what your parenting beliefs are. Even. In terms of, women really struggle a lot with their body.

Afterwards and feeling like, okay, like I have stretch marks, or my stomach hasn’t gone back to its normal shape. Or, am I allowed to say explicit things on this podcast?

[00:35:28] Laurence: Yeah. 

[00:35:28] Heather Shannon: Okay. My vagina’s stretched out. It doesn’t feel the same down there. Or maybe I’m feeling like pain, just like.

Maybe I’m having some like in, not incontinence, but like, like peeing myself when I laugh and having some pelvic floor. It’s like these are all like real things that people don’t talk about a ton. Leave people feeling not that sexy. And then add to that, right after you give birth, the estrogen levels tank.

So basically the two hormones for women that, for everyone I guess that kind of feed [00:36:00] libido are estrogen and testosterone. So the estrogen tanks to a level that’s like similar to menopause. Yeah. Yeah. And then if you’re breastfeeding, that tends to wind up indirectly lowering the testosterone.

And then you’re also like, not even medically cleared to be sexual for a while. So there’s just, and then people have postpartum depression, which like depression. One of the symptoms is low libido. So there’s so many factors that can make it really challenging. And then people are like, why am I not having sex?

Why don’t I have any interest? I should just be like, how I was before. And I’m like, no. Yeah. Like, let’s just like adjust the expectation. So I think that’s important to. Adjust the expectations at the same time. It’s important to not just like give up on it. Yeah. It doesn’t mean like just because there’s been a radical change in your life, in your body, and how you feel about everything.

Doesn’t mean not to prioritize your partner, but it might look different. It might be a little bit less frequent. It might be that you have to kind of be more intentional or [00:37:00] reallocate budget to kind of make time or get childcare. Um, it might mean that you have to be a little more intentional with like your schedule and like when your kid goes to bed so that you do have some time alone at the end of the night.

Those are kind of my thoughts on that. So it’s If you can adjust the expectations and also go slow, because if you’re acknowledging. Maybe my libido’s not as high as it was and I don’t feel maybe as great in my body, but I’m willing to try. I’m willing to show up, but maybe it’s gonna look like, let’s just make out.

Yeah. maybe it doesn’t have to be this all or nothing. And I think we get stuck a lot of times in all or nothing. And this idea that like penetrative sex is the be all, end all. That’s like real sex or the best sex, which is also leaving out. LGBTQ people. Yeah. so it’s like, we gotta just get away from that.

And it could be, if, if penetration is uncomfortable, maybe you stick to what we call outercourse instead of intercourse, whether it’s oral sex or, hand jobs or fingering or toys. or [00:38:00] just like caressing and touching each other. 

[00:38:02] Laurence: I think what, you know, listening to what you’ve said in terms of

Being a more intentional, so let’s say you, you’ve got a babysitter and you’ve got, you’re going on a date night. I think also that’s really, that’s a really great step. But it can also put it’s, it can also put a lot of pressure on that night. I suppose thinking about what we’ve talked about, if you haven’t maybe gone had a discussion where you’ve maybe like to use the, the brakes and accelerators.

Right. And that analogy, I think you, you listed a lot of things that physically happen, biochemically happen after children and Just, the inconvenience of the, of them interrupting your sex life. Yes. If you don’t talk about how that. Affects your own breaks and accelerators then there’s a chance that you’ll put so much pressure on this date night that you won’t know why it didn’t go well.

And then you’ll take that as a rejection and you’ll [00:39:00] be like, oh, no, what’s, we’re never gonna have sex again. 

[00:39:02] Heather Shannon: Right? So. 

[00:39:03] Laurence: I, yeah, I think be more intentional, but take the pressure off and understand a 

[00:39:09] Heather Shannon: hundred percent, 

[00:39:10] Laurence: understand pressure 

[00:39:11] Heather Shannon: and stress are like the number one and the number two libido killers.

Yeah. In my opinion. So that’s why I’m like, don’t do the all or nothing thing. Like you said, the communication, it’s like if you’re communicating, here’s how I’m feeling, here’s how my libido’s feeling. Here’s how I’m feeling about my body. Here’s how I’m managing the stress. And maybe it’s like.

Cool. Let’s have a date night and then just like cuddle afterwards because that’s where we’re at. ‘

[00:39:34] Laurence: cause I, because I mean, I can imagine you, you mentioned a lot about female, the female body goes through a lot during pregnancy and that can be a big thing for them playing on their mind.

[00:39:46] Heather Shannon: Yeah.

[00:39:46] Laurence: And if they don’t, if they don’t have a conversation with their partner, the partner hasn’t the guy hasn’t got the opportunity to say. I am not bothered about that. I just wanna have sex. Do you know what I mean? Right. I think you look [00:40:00] great. I think you look great. And, let’s do it.

Whatever. I think if, yeah, if you don’t express that may or may not matter 

[00:40:06] Heather Shannon: though, 

[00:40:07] Laurence: but Yeah. No, I but if it’s not expressed, then there’s not an opportunity for true. For the partner then to say, oh, but I think you look fantastic. Or, I really I really like this about you.

Right. of course anybody’s gonna, feel self-conscious when their body changes, and that’s a Yeah. Matter of fact. But I think there are ways of, trying to alleviate that by allowing. The partner to understand that so that they can maybe do something about how they communicate what they do like.

Yeah, I think you’re 

[00:40:38] Heather Shannon: right. And I also think that like, even though men are not going through the physical change of birth, they’re still. Having a new human that’s fully dependent on them and their sleep is probably affected and their stress levels are probably affected and they have less time for themselves and less qu, so it’s like there’s still all those changes still affect, both partners regardless if [00:41:00] they were the one to carry the baby.

And also like if their adoptive parent, you know what I mean? It’s like. Regardless of how you wound up with this kid. It’s a radical change. So I think you’re right. Just communicating about it. And my thing is like, it doesn’t have to be the all or nothing, but just take some step towards intimacy.

Just don’t get lazy about it. To the point where it’s like, oh, now a year has gone by and we’ve done great parenting, but there’s no romance, we have no intimacy. And, it is a challenge. So there’s a statistic I wanted to share too. So, the,I’m trained in the Gottman couples counseling approach, and it’s based on this Gottman Institute, which is a re research institute for relationships.

And one of the things they found is that 70% of marriages decline in the first year after having a baby. And it’s like, even if your kids are older, it’s just another factor to kind of work around. Mm-hmm.Yeah. So, but you can do it. You just, again, you have to communicate and you have to be intentional.

[00:41:55] The Impact of Pets and Furniture on Intimacy

[00:41:55] Laurence: I mean, this is just a throwaway comment, but I just, I laugh about. [00:42:00] Because I’ve got a dog and he is so, like he’s my shadow, basically. Aw. And although he does love my girlfriend. Okay. I think there are times where he’s quite jealous for my attention. 

[00:42:14] Heather Shannon: That’s so real. My cats are like that too.

[00:42:16] Laurence: and yeah. He is always there in the bedroom.

[00:42:25] Heather Shannon: That is one of the surprising things that I’ve learned as a sex therapist is how often dogs in particular are cock blocks. 

[00:42:33] Laurence: Well, yeah. I mean, he, 

[00:42:34] Heather Shannon: yeah, he 

[00:42:35] Laurence: doesn’t, fortunately he doesn’t, I. Interfere. It doesn’t stop anything, but it is right. A conscious thing. Like sometimes he’ll be, he’ll get up and potter around the room and if there’s no carpet in there, he’ll be like, we have to put some music on.

Or he’ll start licking himself and he’ll be like, that is not what we need to hear right now.

[00:42:59] Heather Shannon: I mean, my [00:43:00] cat will sometimes like jump on the bed and I’m like, not now. Not now. Yeah. And then he like toss him on the floor and then one of ’em doesn’t get the hit and he jumps back and you’re like, oh my God, I just can’t. 

[00:43:08] Laurence: Yeah. I mean, there’s, but it’s, 

[00:43:09] Heather Shannon: yeah, 

[00:43:10] Laurence: the times I’ve needed to sort of adjust myself and kick him.

[00:43:14] Heather Shannon: Off 

[00:43:14] Laurence: the bed. Right, 

[00:43:15] Heather Shannon: right. I know. It’s 

[00:43:16] Laurence: quite amusing. Yeah. 

[00:43:18] Heather Shannon: So the animals animal thing has been surprising to me. Like people will also be like, oh, we try to cuddle and then the dog hops in the middle of us cuddling on the couch and so then, we’re more paying more attention to the dog or we going to walk, but we’re so much paying attention to the dog that we’re not really connecting.

And then the other surprising one is furniture. People have furniture that is not conducive to cuddling. 

[00:43:38] Laurence: Oh, right. 

[00:43:40] Heather Shannon: Yeah. Or hooking up or whatever. Yeah. They’re like, well, we have two separate lounge chairs. We don’t have a couch or we have a couch, but it’s like very shallow and it’s not good for cuddling.

Yeah. Like interesting. Okay, 

[00:43:50] Laurence: well you’ll have to come back on the show and in the future and talk about furniture and make some recommendations. Okay. 

[00:43:59] Conclusion and Resources

[00:43:59] Laurence: So. [00:44:00] just to wrap up the show then, if people would like to know more about you, get in touch with you. Oh yeah. Where can we send them? 

[00:44:08] Heather Shannon: Yes. So my practice, I focus specifically on people in committed relationships and through my Pathway to Passion program, I am helping them get unstuck in their sex life.

Yeah. regardless of where they’re on different pages and get to a point where they’re feeling close and passionate again. If people are curious about that, they can visit my website, Heather shannon.co. So it’s Heather Shannon dot. Co. Yeah and my podcast information is on there as well, if people wanna check that out.

[00:44:35] Laurence: Fantastic. And what I am seeing here, that you have an intimacy audit. 

[00:44:41] Heather Shannon: Yeah, that’s my freebie. So again, that’s on the website, so Yeah. That’ll just kind of help people figure out. Are we falling into any of these common traps of like why we’re not having the frequency or the quality of intimacy that we wanna be having?

[00:44:55] Laurence: Okay. Fabulous. Well, I will put a link in the show notes to all of those things, [00:45:00] and yeah, thank you so much for a great conversation. 

[00:45:03] Heather Shannon: Thanks for having me, Laurence. This was really fun. [00:45:05] Laurence: Well there, we have it. Thank you so much for listening this far. If you want to hear more episodes, then please subscribe on YouTube or whatever podcast platform you use. It really helps us spread the word. So if you know anyone, this episode could help, then please share it with your friends. If you want to follow me on social media, I am on Instagram at ADHD underscore goals. And you can find me on Facebook too. If you want to get into touch with the show, then you can email me at hello@adhdgoals.co And finally, if you’re struggling to manage your ADHD and you would like me to be your coach, then please head over to my website and get in touch. Until next time. Bye for now.